Fourth Law of Magic Help

[RP21]

Hi guys!!! I need some help about the fourth Law of Magic. What are the limitations of it? I mean does a truth spell get your head chopped off by the council? How about incite emotions? As per the side note on page YS 255. "Plus mental magic, emotions, ghosts – that sort of stuff. Most of that’s beyond me, though—I’m all about the force effects end of things." Please Help Thanks!!

[Lanir]

Don't recall what the deal is with truth spells. I vaguely remember them being specifically mentioned or used somewhere, just don't remember where.

For Incite Emotion I would tend to go with the "Non-Spellcasting Enthrallment" section on page 241 for a guideline.

For emotions and stuff you have to remember that the magic rules you're seeing on page 255 are the general "this is how it works in the game" rules. They're there to tell you how things are done in the system, not whether it's a good idea to do them. That's covered in other sections.

About getting your head chopped off by a warden... It might also help to reread the whole "Breaking the Laws of Magic" section on page 232. The wardens are actually just a side effect and frankly nothing says they have to be right all the time. If they think you've broken a law, they're coming for your head. If they don't think you have or don't have any knowledge of what you've done, they won't. The real danger is once you do these risky things, you risk becoming "someone who does things like that". And the repercussions of that can affect you for a very, very long time.

[Rubycon]

For a truth-spell, you could have different options: A spell that forces the person you cast the spell on to speak nothing but the truth can cause you a lot of trouble while a spell that gives you a bonus on Empathy to detect lies will not.
As a third possibility, you can tell someone that he is under the influence of a truth-spell and he has no chance. Mybe he is biting on it...

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Quick and dirty rule: If you in any way compromise someone's free will, chop.  So, yeah, inciting emotions would cost you your head.  Assume the Wardens make the RIAA/MPAA look like wishy-washy pansies in their zealotry.

[RP21]

Cool!! Thanks for the input.!!

[RP21]

Quick and dirty rule: If you in any way compromise someone's free will, chop.  So, yeah, inciting emotions would cost you your head.  Assume the Wardens make the RIAA/MPAA look like wishy-washy pansies in their zealotry.

How much bonus to empathy will i get? say i make it 6 shifts, 2 for duration, 4 for effect.

[braincraft]

Generally, magic replaces skills rather than adding to them. So 4 shifts for effect would let you roll an effective Empathy 4, for the duration (in this case, 2 shifts sounds like about a short scene's worth of interaction). More shifts would let you have an effectively higher Empathy, or have it for a longer duration. If the spell is weak enough, or your natural Empathy is high enough, it might not even be worth using.

[RP21]

Ah I got it thanks!!

[zenten]

Also, it probably wouldn't be smart to let a Warden know about your Empathy spell.  They probably won't chop off your head for it, but they'd like start watching you more closely.

[Veet]

There is often more than one way to go about things too. For example you want to use magic to put someone to sleep you could break into their brain and give them the suggestion that they are tired OR you could summon a small cloud of ether at their face. Both ways will get you the result one could potentially be construed as a violation of the law. A lot of emotional responses can be attained through simple chemical reactions that you could use magic to deliver, of course I would say a sufficient scholarship would be required with that method.

[DFJunkie]

Both ways will get you the result one could potentially be construed as a violation of the law.

Not really.  Both Harry and the Gate Keeper put people to sleep in TC, the latter pretty aggressively (Harry has to ask for permission to keep Molly from slipping over the side of the Water Beetle and drowning).  Now, Harry is a Warden, and the Gate Keeper is senior council, so both probably have more leeway vis a vis the Wardens, but neither is an example of Lawbreaking powers-wise.

As for the distinction between suggestion and compulsion, I would say that a suggestion is a maneuver using the tag for a compel while a compulsion is a Taken Out result. 

[ways and means]

I don't think emotional or memory projection would be against the fourth law as you are not controlling the targets mind you are merely  adding stimulus (to which they will respond), you are not controlling what they do or how they think they still get to choose how to react to the horrific memories you beam into their head or the awful feelings you project into their minds.

But then I go with a Hobbes view of freedom unless you are actively stopping someone from thinking something or doing something then you aren't breaking the law. (So as long as you don't use mental grapples or force someone to do something you are ok).     

[Veet]

Not really.  Both Harry and the Gate Keeper put people to sleep in TC, the latter pretty aggressively (Harry has to ask for permission to keep Molly from slipping over the side of the Water Beetle and drowning).  Now, Harry is a Warden, and the Gate Keeper is senior council, so both probably have more leeway vis a vis the Wardens, but neither is an example of Lawbreaking powers-wise.

Perhaps but my point still holds. There's always more than one way to go about it and context can count big time.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

I don't think emotional or memory projection would be against the fourth law as you are not controlling the targets mind you are merely  adding stimulus (to which they will respond), you are not controlling what they do or how they think they still get to choose how to react to the horrific memories you beam into their head or the awful feelings you project into their minds.

But then I go with a Hobbes view of freedom unless you are actively stopping someone from thinking something or doing something then you aren't breaking the law. (So as long as you don't use mental grapples or force someone to do something you are ok).     

Molly adding fear in response to drug use was what landed her Lawbreaker in the first place, so I'm pretty sure you're wrong there.  Throwing some mental hurting back as a response to an attempted invasion like in DB or GS I think you could do without worrying about Wardens or picking up Lawbreaker.  Being the one to initiate a mental conflict is likely to keep you from going to that hat convention this summer.

[DFJunkie]

Molly adding fear in response to drug use was what landed her Lawbreaker in the first place, so I'm pretty sure you're wrong there.

This, I think, is where the system becomes useful.  Harry & Co. have to talk in vague terms like suggestion (acceptable) and compulsion (Lawbreaking.)  We can talk about maneuvers, blocks, and taken out results.  Since the first two can be overcome via fate point expenditure and good rolling respectively they can be considered suggestions, while the latter cannot be overcome once established, so it would be a compulsion.

Molly did some extensive rewiring work in her friends' heads, making them mortally terrified of taking heroin.  The end result, in game terms, was that they were unable to nut up and do some smack if it were important enough.  She took them out and changed them at a basic level (isn't there some passage in the book about the Fourth Law being the mental equivalent of the Second?) 

Being the one to initiate a mental conflict is likely to keep you from going to that hat convention this summer.

Agreed.  IMO outside of training there's no reason to engage in mental conflict via magic other than trying to rewire someone.