Stunt Balance Problems

[UmbraLux]

Because you can make stunts freely.

If it's okay for stunts to interact in ways that make them more powerful than they should be, then why not just design such things into them?

"More powerful than they should be"?  That's a matter of perspective not an objective measure.  I tend to agree with your concluding question, why not design interaction into the stunts?  Stunt trees are common in some FATE games. 

Not saying you can't go overboard, anything can be taken too far.  I'm just not going to worry about an extra +2 when wizards drop the hammer at five times that.

I really like stunts. I think that their power level is great. I don't want to see it messed with.

PS: Optimization does not preclude the use of stunts. Optimizing for social combat is all about stunts, in fact. And sometimes two combat stunts are better than a level of Strength or Speed or Toughness or Recovery.

Yep, it's what keeps mundane humans in striking distance of the supernaturals.  A Good Thing (TM)! 

[Sanctaphrax]

The problem with the stunts in this example is that they out-compete other stunts.

Remember the Crafter Warden I mentioned?

Why should he take any accuracy-boosting stunt that isn't Swing For The Fences? From an optimization standpoint, there is no reason. And that's a problem, because it encourages one character concept above all others.

Crafter-boy would be mildly overpowered without any broken stunts. Crafter builds are pretty scary. And unlike wizards, they usually have a stunt or two.

I'm not too worried about mortals. I'm worried about people already on the edge of fairness becoming stronger.

Stunt trees are a form of controlled interaction, where the bonuses can be kept balanced. What we have here is uncontrolled interaction, which should be avoided.

PS: I'd actually like to design some more stunt trees in the future. If you check out the master list, you'll find a couple of short ones that I've made already. Your opinion would be appreciated, especially since stunt tree design is something I'm not totally comfortable with yet. I need more practice.

[UmbraLux]

What we have here is uncontrolled interaction, which should be avoided.

As GM, I try to err on the side of permissiveness rather than trying to control everything.  In the end, we're all there to play a game.  Most balance issues can be resolved by out of game communication. 

PS: I'd actually like to design some more stunt trees in the future. If you check out the master list, you'll find a couple of short ones that I've made already. Your opinion would be appreciated, especially since stunt tree design is something I'm not totally comfortable with yet. I need more practice.

I admire the work you've put into that (and other threads).  I think it's a good resource and an excellent place to find ideas.  That said, I tend to edit things once I have a purpose in mind.  Designing to some arbitrary standard is too much like work (I have to write far too many process documents)...and one reason I'll never publish a game.   

In case it hasn't been said, thanks for putting the list together!

[Tedronai]

Because you can make stunts freely.

Faulty premise.

All created stunts, all characters, require the consent and approval of the GM, if not the table as a whole.

[Blackblade]

Faulty premise.

All created stunts, all characters, require the consent and approval of the GM, if not the table as a whole.

That is true, but I would say that new stunts generally have a lower "barrier of entry" that new powers, so long as they fit within the guidelines.

[Tedronai]

That is true, but I would say that new stunts generally have a lower "barrier of entry" that new powers, so long as they fit within the guidelines.

At least the effects available from stunts HAVE guidelines.
And what 'barriers to entry' a particular group sets is up to that group.  It's not encoded anywhere in the rules.

[BumblingBear]

I don't handle it at all.

This is an RPG - not an mmo.  I don't worry about balance issues much.

[Sanctaphrax]

Truth be told, I don't worry too much about balance when I'm actually playing.

But when I'm designing, it's one of my primary goals.

And I'm designing right now. What Tedronai and UmbraLux have said seems to me to boil down to

"The problem is easily ignored or dealt with, and therefore not a problem."

And that, while a decent way to approach these things at the table, is not a good design philosophy.

PS: Thanks and you're welcome, UmbraLux.

[BumblingBear]

Truth be told, I don't worry too much about balance when I'm actually playing.

But when I'm designing, it's one of my primary goals.

And I'm designing right now. What Tedronai and UmbraLux have said seems to me to boil down to

"The problem is easily ignored or dealt with, and therefore not a problem."

And that, while a decent way to approach these things at the table, is not a good design philosophy.

PS: Thanks and you're welcome, UmbraLux.

I agree with you... but in that case it's only something you should be worrying about when creating house rules or writing your own RPG.

While playing one - not so much.