Mixed magic

[ARedthorn]

I have a player who's described an evocation spell that... well... could be more than one element at the same time, namely, a sandstorm. It's being done as an 9 shift evocation [1 zone, 4 rounds, Weapon 4 (Control . I see this as having elements of air, earth, and even water... (air is obvious, earth for the substance of the spell- the sand- and water's decay application could tie in in a couple of ways, though it's the weakest link).

Is there any basis for something like this? I know I can just do it like lightning and say that it's his choice of elements, but he asked me if there was any sort of penalty or perk for trying to juggle multiple elements in casting... and I just don't know. The best I can point to is when Harry used frost and fire together in changes to enhance eachother... so something tells me there should be something useful there, but the rules just don't support the idea- or frankly seem to care.

[Haru]

I can see 2 ways to deal with this.

First, if you need to rely on evocation alone, it would be either a two step spell, first laying down a maneuver like 'loose sand' and then tagging it for a bonus on the second spell to get more power out. Or you can just do it as a single spell, using your higher bonus and just narrating it as a double effect spell.

The second, and I think the way Harry has done it would be sponsored magic and the 'thaum at evos speed' thing, because a multi effect spell would be easier wih thaum.

In essence though, you can use a trillion effects in one spell, as long, as it stays within the rules of the spells. A fireball does the same damage as a frostfireball. The only thing that might change is, that different spell effects might offer different ways to incorporate aspects. An air spell could invoke 'loose sand' easily, fir would have a harder time.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

I can see 2 ways to deal with this.

First, if you need to rely on evocation alone, it would be either a two step spell, first laying down a maneuver like 'loose sand' and then tagging it for a bonus on the second spell to get more power out. Or you can just do it as a single spell, using your higher bonus and just narrating it as a double effect spell.

The second, and I think the way Harry has done it would be sponsored magic and the 'thaum at evos speed' thing, because a multi effect spell would be easier wih thaum.

In essence though, you can use a trillion effects in one spell, as long, as it stays within the rules of the spells. A fireball does the same damage as a frostfireball. The only thing that might change is, that different spell effects might offer different ways to incorporate aspects. An air spell could invoke 'loose sand' easily, fir would have a harder time.

Actually, I think you could probably do a replication of Harry's frost/fire spell as a one step evo but I don't feel like thinking it out right now.

Think you're more or less dead on on the sandstorm though.  Assuming there isn't loose sand already there to be tagged.

[ARedthorn]

At the very least- there's dust everywhere... and the water(decay) tie in I had was to create that sand out of... well, anything- certainly, the descrip of Ramirez's spell left a lot of particulate sand about.

I might have to have him set it up as a two round effect... the only other thing I could think of was to have him cast at the worse of his two elemental bonuses, and then give him a bonus to the effect's potency for the interaction of elements... but compared to how that would work vs just letting him use the best of his elemental bonuses, it'd just about be a wash, so why bother with extra rules? K.I.S.S.

If he wants any extra effect out of it, above and beyond the normal... a 2-step spell is just about the only solution I can think of, and it's not a bad one... I kind of visually see it taking him a couple rounds to whip this up anyway..... not quite thaumaturgy length- I don't see it taking him minutes of prep or a circle (unless he's going for a much bigger version than a single zone), but more than a single round.

[Taran]

What is a sand-storm?  Strong winds blowing sand at high velocity.  Couldn't he, for a free action, just make a declaration, "lots of sand and dirt lying around", then use an air evocation to blow it all over the place?  This could work in any outdoor scenario.

It probably doesn't answer your question, but that's how I would do that partical-ar spell. (sorry, bad joke)

If he wants to do things like blind people and such, then an air maneuver would be fine.  Make it last a bunch of exchanges and tag it for any attack spells.

[Masurao]

Perhaps a stupid question, but couldn't it be an earth element spell, where the caster creates the sand and wills it in a big cloud? I mean, he is allowed to manipulate it, isn't he? So why not a little high velocity movement, similar to a gust?

[Tsunami]

My Advice: Don't overthink it.

If there is Sand around to use, Air Evocation.
If there is no Sand around... either there will be no Sandstorm, or you will have to make sand before you can use it in an Air Evocation to make a Sandstorm.


Btw: Multi-Round attack spells are not really legal by the rules. Prolonging spells is meant for Maneuvers or Blocks.

[ARedthorn]

He's mostly with the earth magic, and I have no problem with him using that instead of air (he's got air, but stronger with earth).

If there isn't sand already around (and he's not willing to go for a declaration on that point), I'll let him make sand using earth (or, as I said, maybe water) as a maneuver... that just about satisfies me for purposes of this.

agh. just noticed the random smiley... that was 4 ). Also- thanks for that- we'd more or less been allowing it in certain, limited effects... I'll talk to everyone about how appropriate it might/might not be as a house rule, and work from there. Best case I can think of in favor is one spell that allows a player to create a blade out of ice that he can attack with- it's set as evocation, and provides a fairly low weapon value (appropriate to the size of the blade), and melts over the course of a couple turns if not maintained... he paid extra shifts for the extra rounds (reducing it's damage), and while his first roll is sufficient for both control and attack- if he uses it more than once, he has to roll to hit again. So far, it's not been a problem- if anything, it's the most balanced spell he has going for him, relative to the other players in the game.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Btw: Multi-Round attack spells are not really legal by the rules. Prolonging spells is meant for Maneuvers or Blocks.

Yeah, I was thinking of it like a damaging block.  Like Orbius for instance. 

[Sanctaphrax]

Ugh, Orbius. I hate that spell.

I think you'd be better off making up some houserules for multi-round attacks.

[Haru]

I remembered, we had a discussion about multi-exchange attack spells a while ago, maybe it helps:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,25872.msg1102751.html

[ARedthorn]

At this point, I'm going completely OT on my own thread, but wasn't sure I wanted to resurrect the other...

I came up with another, possibly more agreeable option, since the concern seems to be that extending the spell wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the accuracy bonus- ie, extra duration reduces weapon grade neatly, but doesn't reduce bonus damage, and allows for, ultimately, a net damage profit relative to the stress cost.

What if you treat the bonus accuracy damage the same way you treat it for split or zone attacks, and only allow it to apply once, split over several rounds?

IE- If I make a Weapon:5 spell that lasts 4 rounds (8 shifts), and roll an 8 on my control (barely got it), vs their defense of 4, instead of doing 9 damage the first round, and possibly 9 more each round til it runs out... you have to split the 4 bonus accuracy damage up among each round... you can front load it, so round 1 does 9 damage, and each after that only the minimum of 5 (minus armor), or spread it out, and do 6 each round (minus armor).
In the case of such attacks that are ALSO split attacks or zone attacks, it has to be split even further.

In favor: it limits the worst of the extra damage, and uses an already existing mechanic (always a good sign, IMO)... furthermore, it uses that existing mechanic in a way that makes philosophical sense, since you really are just splitting the bonus damage among multiple targets- those targets simply don't occupy the same time-frame. If some of those multiple targets happen to have the same face and name- eh.

For my purposes, for my character (frost sword spell, weapon:5, 4 rounds), I was also planning on him not being able to use any other magic while he did this particular spell- he'd still have to direct it, and so couldn't afford the concentration to double-dip on the action economy. This would merely allow him to pace himself better when it comes to his mental stress by doing a significantly less damage than he's normally capable of, spread out over a couple rounds... and I'd probably only use it in certain circumstances (like when I'm running out of mental stress and still have a ways to go in the current fight... or have a lot of mobs to worry about fighting that I can't safely roast en-masse... endurance fights, essentially).

Similar limitations are being applied on my player as far as not being able to double-dip on the action economy, or stack up on accuracy bonus.

[Haru]

The thing is, as a split attack, it would look completely different. If you conjure up 8 shifts of power with a roll of 8, you could make it a split attack and hit 4 targets with an attack roll of 2 and a weapon:2 spell. The same should apply if you would split the roll not over multiple targets but multiple exchanges on the same target. And if the target can beat the 2 of the attack roll, it would not get any stress in that exchange from your spell. Everything else would give you a lot more for than you should get for your casting stress.

All in all, stacking aspects and tagging them for the big hit is the way to go with fate. The aspects are essentially the stress the target accumulates during the fight, and at some point it becomes to much and the next attack takes him out, although mechanically it is the first attack to actually do any damage. It is just extremely strange, if you come from any other rpg.

Enchanting a weapon, either as an enchanted item or with a maneuver spell, would be a better way, if you really want to use a weapon like that.
And if the character concept is all about using a weapon like that, it might be time to make the weapon an IoP with the ability to do +2 stress and all it's damage becomes frost damage or something similar. I would not outright increase the weapon rating, as has been pointed out in another thread, that can lead to all kinds of different problems. From the story point of view, the character would still enchant his weapon every time he uses it, but the continued use has made him so perfect at this, that he doesn't really need to think about it any more, it is just what he does, so it would no longer have to be governed by the usual casting rules.

Edit:
One additional idea. Since simply increasing the damage is nice, it would probably not worth more than 1 refresh, which would not exactly make it IoP material. How about an additional power?

Frostbite [-2]
Instead of inflicting stress, you can put 'frostbite' on the target, when your attack connects. Your target is frozen and can not act as long as the frostbite is in place. Heat can remove the aspect, otherwise treat it as a block equal to you weapon skill.