Pure mortal to supernatrual character

[The Mighty Buzzard]

   How is that, considering Loup-Garou are all but immune to magic? Dresden was already optimized in the best way any character could be to deal with a Loup-Garou. He had a preesstablished Aspect of inherited silver. The only thing that CAN stop it.

Harry all but spells out exactly that in one of the early books.  Flat footed they're more powerful than your average joe but with prep time and planning they're just short of an old testament smiting.

Better optimized though? Please.  The thaumaturgy worked because it wasn't actually trying to inflict harm and he had a damned strong focus in its blood and a moderately similar fetish.  His best evocation didn't do much but annoy it.  It's pretty much inherited silver or nuke it for killing a Loup-garou.

[Sanctaphrax]

Suppose you are an 8-shift earth evoker. You can easily drop an 11-shift evocation (as a rote, if you want) if you are willing to take a bit of harmless backlash.

So you do that. 11-shift evocation block against all physical action, in-story justification of manipulating gravity to hold the Loup-Garou helpless in mid-air.

Next exchange you extend the block for 8 more exchanges.

Then you take your time to dig a really big hole, with magic.

Then you put the Loup-Garou in the hole.

You can bury it there if you feel inclined. Or you can just leave it. Either way, it's basically neutralized.

It's been a while since I read the appropriate book, but I think that this should work.

Harry has a worthless power that costs him 1 refresh (Lawbreaker) and a stunt that isn't related to fighting. Plus, he uses multiple elements. He is not an optimized combat character.

Since Belial666 isn't around, I have to do his job.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Suppose you are an 8-shift earth evoker. You can easily drop an 11-shift evocation (as a rote, if you want) if you are willing to take a bit of harmless backlash.

So you do that. 11-shift evocation block against all physical action, in-story justification of manipulating gravity to hold the Loup-Garou helpless in mid-air.

Next exchange you extend the block for 8 more exchanges.

Then you take your time to dig a really big hole, with magic.

Then you put the Loup-Garou in the hole.

You can bury it there if you feel inclined. Or you can just leave it. Either way, it's basically neutralized.

It's been a while since I read the appropriate book, but I think that this should work.

Harry has a worthless power that costs him 1 refresh (Lawbreaker) and a stunt that isn't related to fighting. Plus, he uses multiple elements. He is not an optimized combat character.

Since Belial666 isn't around, I have to do his job.

That's putting off a fight, not winning one.  And I'd dearly love to go up against one of your optimized combat characters that can't effectively use multiple elements.  Use one or two of your multiple elements to effectively neutralize their highly specialized one and they're completely screwed.  Example: Fire user?  Use an air manuver and shove 2/3 of the O2 out of the area for two or three exchanges.  No O2, no fire and specialized guy is Unexpectedly Having Trouble Breathing.  It's easy to counter a specialist, that's precisely why focused practitioners are considered less powerful than full wizards.

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't actually advocate the use of characters like this outside of examples.

And I question the validity of that maneuver. (EDIT: Plus, a heat beam requires no oxygen and is just as lethal as a fireball.)

But it is winning a fight to trap your opponent in a hole. If you want, you can come back the next morning when he's human and shoot him. Or just let the dirt suffocate him when he's human again.

I wonder if the latter method is Lawbreaking.

The limits of elements have been debated to death. But let me point out that the character in this example actually evokes two other elements to the tune of 5 shifts, maybe more. He's hardly helpless when not using his specialty.

A fire-using channeler is worse at using fire than a fire-using evoker, by the way. The only exceptions are

a) if he focuses entirely on offensive or defensive evocation, he can outdo the evoker very slightly at it at the cost of being rather bad at the other type.

and

b) when there is very little refresh available to spend.

And finally, I challenge you to find a situation where Spirit evocations are useless. That element does basically everything. It kinda bugs me.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

I don't actually advocate the use of characters like this outside of examples.

And I question the validity of that maneuver. (EDIT: Plus, a heat beam requires no oxygen and is just as lethal as a fireball.)

But it is winning a fight to trap your opponent in a hole. If you want, you can come back the next morning when he's human and shoot him. Or just let the dirt suffocate him when he's human again.

I wonder if the latter method is Lawbreaking.

The limits of elements have been debated to death. But let me point out that the character in this example actually evokes two other elements to the tune of 5 shifts, maybe more. He's hardly helpless when not using his specialty.

A fire-using channeler is worse at using fire than a fire-using evoker, by the way. The only exceptions are

a) if he focuses entirely on offensive or defensive evocation, he can outdo the evoker very slightly at it at the cost of being rather bad at the other type.

and

b) when there is very little refresh available to spend.

And finally, I challenge you to find a situation where Spirit evocations are useless. That element does basically everything. It kinda bugs me.

In hindsight, that came off a bit crabbier than I intended, my bad and my apologies.  I still wouldn't say dropping a loup-garou in a hole is winning though, filled or not.  It's highly unlikely to still be there in the morning unless you sat there and made sure it stayed in.  Which would cost a <i>lot</i> more stress points.

And I'm not saying some specialization is bad but thinking one element is the cure to all your casting woes is badly misguided.  I'm talking player as well as character here.  I personally don't care if they want to stick all their extra refresh towards earth refinement but they'd absolutely better be in the right frame of mind to prove why a wizard is not just more powerful but just plain more than a FP.  If they refuse to take a clue it's quickly going to become obvious to other players that they're a really lousy wizard and I'm going to get terribly bored GMing them if I have to constantly think "is this otherwise easy situation going to end up killing everyone because earth magic can't handle it?"

Spirit's the trickiest of the bunch, no doubt, but it's still plenty vulnerable.  Its shields are the de facto standard but (unless they're a veil rather than a shield) they almost never stop light (such as Light Amplified by Stimulated Emission of Radiation) and probably don't stop air, heat, or massive electrical discharge.  They definitely don't help when The Building Is On Fire.  They can't keep you from becoming Magically Grounded by the running water from a nearby burst pipe/fire hydrant.  There's not much spirit can do to directly counter increased or decreased gravity.

Guess what I'm saying is it's fine to have a favorite element and let it develop into a signature style but if your use of the other elements sucks (either because of over specialization or just your thinking) then you should have just rolled a FP and gotten the extra refresh.

[Korwin]

Spirit's the trickiest of the bunch, no doubt, but it's still plenty vulnerable.  Its shields are the de facto standard but (unless they're a veil rather than a shield) they almost never stop light (such as Light Amplified by Stimulated Emission of Radiation) and probably don't stop air, heat, or massive electrical discharge.

Depending on the Shield. I could see ways for an Spirit/Force shield to protect against those things.

They definitely don't help when The Building Is On Fire.

Use Spirit to go to the NeverNever.

They can't keep you from becoming Magically Grounded by the running water from a nearby burst pipe/fire hydrant. 

Not even water can do that, right?

There's not much spirit can do to directly counter increased or decreased gravity.

Use Spirit to backtrack the magic to its source?

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Depending on the Shield. I could see ways for an Spirit/Force shield to protect against those things.

True but you run into Harry's problem with his new shield.  He's likely having to allocate extra shifts for each thing he wants protected from beyond kinetic force.  And I still wouldn't allow protecting from light (if you still want to see without also making it a veil and paying double shifts) or air (if you still wanted to breathe inside a dome shield).

Use Spirit to go to the NeverNever.

Thaumaturgy, not evocation (YW282).  Not bad thinking though.  Air or water to smother the flames or fire to directly draw the heat from the flames (yeah, it's a bit kemmlerian in application but I might be able to be talked into it because of multiple uses by harry to freeze water with a fire spell).  Spirit evocation though?  Can't think of anything for either spirit or earth off the top of my head that doesn't involve ripping yourself an escape route.

Not even water can do that, right?

Earth can.  Once it's in place, an earth wall is just plain, ordinary dirt.

Use Spirit to backtrack the magic to its source?

Again, Thaumaturgy, not evocation (Divination, YW275).  And I'm not even sure what good being able to locate the source of magic would do to get you down or unpinned/squashed dead .  Being able to retaliate with Earth solves the issue on either count.  Air could be used to actually fly in low-G but I wouldn't allow shifts for duration or anything beyond extremely simple actions.  Fire would be only as useful as water or spirit though in that it could really only be used to block LoS until the duration shifts ran out or attack in return at some serious negatives once the Squashed/Floating aspect gets compelled.

Yeah, there's more than one way to deal with almost anything you can think up but that doesn't mean there's always a way for every element.
[/quote]

[zenten]

I see going into the NeverNever when the whole room is on fire as a terminally bad idea.  Remember, the place you go to on the other side reflects where you are now.  So it would probably be even hotter there.

[polkaneverdies]

Rip open a door in the nevernever and punt the loup garou through.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

I see going into the NeverNever when the whole room is on fire as a terminally bad idea.  Remember, the place you go to on the other side reflects where you are now.  So it would probably be even hotter there.

Depends on how quick the shift in symbology* affects the destination.

*Yes, I know it's symbolism.  My name's not Dollypoposkallius.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Rip open a door in the nevernever and punt the loup garou through.

Thaumaturgy.  See above.  Yeah, I know it's an easy enough bit of thaumaturgy that it might as well be evocation.  This is one bit that squarely flies in the face of DF cannon as far as the RPG goes though.  Harry didn't have enough lore to no-prep most of the doorways he created.  It bugs me a bit but I'm still sticking to the RPG rules as far as this goes.

[Masurao]

Depends on how quick the shift in symbology* affects the destination.

*Yes, I know it's symbolism.  My name's not Dollypoposkallius.

Ghost Story spoiler:

(click to show/hide)

Harry tells us that fire is fire, even to spirits, it is a cleansing force the reaches beyond the pale.

However, it is not said if it crosses the boundary into the Nevernever. Personally, I would say not immediately. However, if a building was set on fire and a lot of people died tragically, then that site would probably burn for some eternity in the Nevernever...

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Ghost Story spoiler:

(click to show/hide)

Harry tells us that fire is fire, even to spirits, it is a cleansing force the reaches beyond the pale.

However, it is not said if it crosses the boundary into the Nevernever. Personally, I would say not immediately. However, if a building was set on fire and a lot of people died tragically, then that site would probably burn for some eternity in the Nevernever...

I tend to agree.  I'd give it at least a day and maybe a week to settle into its new location.

Interesting side question.  Does the shift occur immediately or would there be massive chaos happening with any doorways that were opened before it settled on a new fixed location?

[Masurao]

I tend to agree.  I'd give it at least a day and maybe a week to settle into its new location.

Interesting side question.  Does the shift occur immediately or would there be massive chaos happening with any doorways that were opened before it settled on a new fixed location?

If it is a major change, coupled with spiritual/mental trauma, I'd say there would be instant changes. Not everything all at once, but there might indeed be an increase in apparent temperature, or some flames licking here and there.

[Sanctaphrax]

Don't worry about being crabby, I don't mind.

I refuse to have the element debate again. It wasn't all that fun the first time, and I don't think it'll benefit from repetition.

I disagree with you about how versatile elements are. If you want to me to explain further, I might be able to find some relevant links.

But I would like to point out that my hypothetical optimized wizard would not be less versatile at magic than Harry.

Harry has fire power 6, with offensive control 4 and defensive control 3. He also has spirit power 5 with offensive and defensive control 4. Finally, he has air power 5 with offensive and defensive control 3.

My hypothetical wizard has earth offensive power and control 8 and earth defensive power and control 7. He also has spirit power and control 5 and water power and control 5. Also, he's better at Thaumaturgy.

The hypothetical guy is just better at magic. Which he should be, because he invested more resources into it.

Also, if you just want to be as good as possible at using one element, you should choose Evocation instead of Channeling. Counter-intuitive, but true.

Regardless, what I said about the Loup-Garou stands. With the catch available, it's a decent solo fight for a combat-primary Chest Deep character. Without the catch available, it's still not unbeatable.