A problem with the rules, and a simple fix

[noclue]

What about demolitions work, then?  I could see a base difficulty needed to properly set and arm explosives, but your roll could still be contested if someone wanted to disarm your bomb.

But do any modifiers that make it easier to set the explosives make it harder to disarm the explosives?

Driving in a chase: You have to make at least, say, a Good roll to make the jump over the ravine, but your roll's contested by the guys trying to catch up to you as well.

Again, assuming you wanted to do this, aren't the situational modifiers you face in jumping the ravine also faced by your pursuers?

The only place in the book where I find this issue of difficulty modifiers that make it easy to do something lower the difficulty of the opposition in undoing it is in the Hiding trapping. I'm thinking it may be that not enough thought went into that paragraph. I mean if they had said something like "your roll to hide sets the base difficulty when someone tries to find you and you apply situational modifiers to that base difficulty when the searcher rolls," it would be pretty much in keep with the way a Block works in RAW and you wouldn't get into this mess where the success of your hiding roll seems irrelevant.

[admiralducksauce]

Man.  I am ten times more confused after reading this thread.

Good points about the car chase and the demolitions examples.  Those were shitty examples.  I was trying to think of some other situation so people weren't focusing on Stealth specifically, but apparently Stealth is the only situation where this stuff happens.  That said:

Bright lights (or other arbitrary modifiers that make sneaking harder) don't give a penalty to the ninja AND give a bonus to the guard.  That's double jeopardy.  There's only one man alive who can do that.

Just pick one.  Either the ninja gets a penalty or the guard(s) get a bonus.  I'd personally penalize the ninja.  Hiding in bright light is stupid and stupid ninjas get what they deserve.

[TheMouse]

Good points about the car chase and the demolitions examples.  Those were shitty examples.  I was trying to think of some other situation so people weren't focusing on Stealth specifically, but apparently Stealth is the only situation where this stuff happens.

Stealth is the only place where this explicitly occurs of which I am aware. Any time there's a contested roll in which one side is advantaged because of an environmental or situational modifier that isn't based on the fate point economy, you get the issue of which this thread speaks.

Let's look at a theoretical situation in which someone is trying to get a piece of non-specified equipment online before someone can cross an expanse to reach them. The GM decides that this is a contested roll of Athletics versus Craftsmanship, and the guy trying to get the equipment online is rushed, so he takes a +2 difficulty. One can extrapolate from existing rules that he rolls versus his difficulty, then if successful that becomes the difficulty for Athletics guy.

But this creates the same problem. Since Crafts guy is rushed, his minimum successful roll is +2. If he wasn't rushed, it'd be +0. So Athletics guy actually has a more difficult minimum should the roll be successful because Crafts guy has a hard time...  which doesn't really make sense.

So, I think that the simplest way to run this is to give Athletics guy a +2 to his roll rather than Crafts guy a +2 to his difficulty. You avoid the strangeness of something being harder and therefore harder to stop, and you also retain the system's tendency to avoid giving penalties to any rolls.

[Tedronai]

Stealth is the only place where this explicitly occurs of which I am aware. Any time there's a contested roll in which one side is advantaged because of an environmental or situational modifier that isn't based on the fate point economy, you get the issue of which this thread speaks.

Let's look at a theoretical situation in which someone is trying to get a piece of non-specified equipment online before someone can cross an expanse to reach them. The GM decides that this is a contested roll of Athletics versus Craftsmanship, and the guy trying to get the equipment online is rushed, so he takes a +2 difficulty. One can extrapolate from existing rules that he rolls versus his difficulty, then if successful that becomes the difficulty for Athletics guy.

But this creates the same problem. Since Crafts guy is rushed, his minimum successful roll is +2. If he wasn't rushed, it'd be +0. So Athletics guy actually has a more difficult minimum should the roll be successful because Crafts guy has a hard time...  which doesn't really make sense.

So, I think that the simplest way to run this is to give Athletics guy a +2 to his roll rather than Crafts guy a +2 to his difficulty. You avoid the strangeness of something being harder and therefore harder to stop, and you also retain the system's tendency to avoid giving penalties to any rolls.

The 'athletics guy' has a hard time getting to the 'craftsmanship guy' 'in time' because the 'craftsmanship guy' is rushing.

[TheMouse]

The 'athletics guy' has a hard time getting to the 'craftsmanship guy' 'in time' because the 'craftsmanship guy' is rushing.

Yes, but the athletics guy is rushing as well. They're both rushing. That's the point. It's just that crafts guy is in a situation where he needs to rush more... which for some reason makes it harder to catch up with him.

[babel2uk]

Hmm, I can't say that I'd have that situation as a direct contested roll anyway, it doesn't make sense from a mechanical or narrative point of view . Surely the difficulties of the rolls are pretty much unrelated. The athletics guy's action is based on area boundaries and the difference between the time it would normally take and the how long they want it to take (within common sense depending on whether they have any sort of speed ability). The craft guy's roll is based around the complexity of what he's trying to assemble, how much he's rushing and any other minor environmental factors.

The result is entirely dependant on the time reduction part of the equation though which is a judgement call by both parties as to how fast they think they need to be. If the Athletics guy pushes to make it there in 'half a minute', but the Crafter has reduced their crafting time to 'a few moments' it doesn't matter if athletics guy rolls higher, he'll still be too late.

If they've both elected to reduce their times to the same timeframe then it depends on a bunch of other stuff, not least of which are just how fast athletics guy can move and how fast the the tech activates when the last piece is in place, and what it actually does.

[noclue]

Effectively, in a contested roll each character is setting the other's difficulty. So, if rushing to get the equipment online makes it more difficult to do, the modifier should just increase the roll of the Athletics guy. Making it harder for the craft guy to succeed. That's how I'd do it at least.

[admiralducksauce]

That example is really easy.

"MacGuyver, you and Usain Bolt both roll your respective skills.  If Usain's Athletics beats Mac's Craftmanship, then Usain reaches him before he finishes.  If not, Mac finishes his gadget."

If you still need to know if Mac finishes the work correctly - if that's actually part of the conflict, which it may not need to be - then you can add: "...Oh, and MacGuyver, if you don't roll at least a Good result, you've rushed your work too much and made mistakes - or you took too much time, regardless of the quality of the work you started."

[Tedronai]

Yes, but the athletics guy is rushing as well. They're both rushing. That's the point. It's just that crafts guy is in a situation where he needs to rush more... which for some reason makes it harder to catch up with him.

The purpose of the relevant Athletics trapping is to rush.  The same cannot be said of craftsmanship's 'building things'.

[wyvern]

Let's look at a theoretical situation in which someone is trying to get a piece of non-specified equipment online before someone can cross an expanse to reach them. The GM decides that this is a contested roll of Athletics versus Craftsmanship, and the guy trying to get the equipment online is rushed, so he takes a +2 difficulty. One can extrapolate from existing rules that he rolls versus his difficulty, then if successful that becomes the difficulty for Athletics guy.

But this creates the same problem. Since Crafts guy is rushed, his minimum successful roll is +2. If he wasn't rushed, it'd be +0. So Athletics guy actually has a more difficult minimum should the roll be successful because Crafts guy has a hard time...  which doesn't really make sense.

You're thinking about this from the wrong direction.  Athletics Guy doesn't have a more difficult time.  In fact, Athletics Guy has the advantage in this situation.  How so?  Well, normally, Crafts Guy would roll, and that would set the difficulty for Athletics Guy.  Now, you've changed the situation: if Crafts Guy rolls a +1 or less, he automatically loses - and Athletics Guy doesn't even need to roll.  So, sure, the "minimum difficulty" for Athletics Guy is higher - but you're overlooking the fact that this is because sometimes, Athletics Guy will simply win without having had to roll at all.  (And thus without having to run the risk of getting a -3 on the dice, or getting his "sprained ankle" consequence invoked against him, or whatever.)

That said, I would agree that in general I'd just run with this being a bonus to Athletics Guy's skill roll (or a penalty to Crafts Guy); dealing with minimum difficulties and failure conditions is just too finicky to be worth the trouble under normal circumstances.

[TheMouse]

The purpose of the relevant Athletics trapping is to rush.  The same cannot be said of craftsmanship's 'building things'.

You're wrong, because it's my example, and the roll is to see if you can do it in time. Crafts guy is trying to get the non-specific gadget up and going before Athletics guy can get there to stop him. That's what the contested roll is for. It's to see if crafts guy can do one thing quickly before someone else can do something else quickly. The example situation exists wholly in my head, so believe me when I say that this situation is about one person rushing to do something before someone else rushes to do another thing, but one person is at a disadvantage and so would normally receive a +2 to their difficulty.

[Tedronai]

You're wrong, because it's my example, and the roll is to see if you can do it in time.

You misunderstand.  I'm not talking about the rolls, but the TRAPPINGS.
The purpose of the athletics trapping that allows you to move quickly is to move QUICKLY.  'Rushing' is integral to its purpose.
The purpose of the craftsmanship trapping that allows you to build things is to BUILD THINGS.  The fact that the character in this example needs to do so QUICKLY is an added complication.

[Morgan]

I am not sure I see your problem.

Hiding sets up an opposed contest between the person who is hiding's Stealth and the person who is looking's Alertness or Investigation. If it is easy to hide say because there is a lot of cover and shadows and what not the person who is hiding gets a bonus to his Stealth roll, and the person who is looking has to roll his Alertness or Investigation and beat that the number rolled plus the environmental difficulty modifier in order to find them.

If the situation is reversed and the environment is very hard to hide in due to it being brightly lit with no cover then the person who is looking gets the environmental difficulty modifier bonus to his roll on Alertness or Investigation and the person who is hiding still sets the difficulty to be found using his Stealth skill.

Since a Stealth roll is always an opposed roll against an opponent's Alertness or Investigation roll you give the environmental difficulty to whomever would get the benefit of the environmental difficulty modifier on their roll and therefore make it more difficult for his opponent.

So hiding in a dark environment with lots of cover has an environmental bonus of +3 to hide. Hider rolls his Stealth skill +4DF +3 points environmental bonus vs the Looker who rolls his Alertness or Investigation skill +4DF and see who is the winner.

Spotting someone in a brightly lit environment without any cover has an environmental bonus of +3 to spot. Hider rolls his Stealth skill +4DF vs the Looker who rolls his Alertness or Investigation skill +4DF +3 points environmental bonus and see who is the winner.

In both situations the environmental difficulty modifier makes it more difficult for whoever would have difficulty on their roll due to the environmental difficulty modifier.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

I am not sure I see your problem.

Hiding sets up an opposed contest between the person who is hiding's Stealth and the person who is looking's Alertness or Investigation. If it is easy to hide say because there is a lot of cover and shadows and what not the person who is hiding gets a bonus to his Stealth roll, and the person who is looking has to roll his Alertness or Investigation and beat that the number rolled plus the environmental difficulty modifier in order to find them.

If the situation is reversed and the environment is very hard to hide in due to it being brightly lit with no cover then the person who is looking gets the environmental difficulty modifier bonus to his roll on Alertness or Investigation and the person who is hiding still sets the difficulty to be found using his Stealth skill.

Since a Stealth roll is always an opposed roll against an opponent's Alertness or Investigation roll you give the environmental difficulty to whomever would get the benefit of the environmental difficulty modifier on their roll and therefore make it more difficult for his opponent.

So hiding in a dark environment with lots of cover has an environmental bonus of +3 to hide. Hider rolls his Stealth skill +4DF +3 points environmental bonus vs the Looker who rolls his Alertness or Investigation skill +4DF and see who is the winner.

Spotting someone in a brightly lit environment without any cover has an environmental bonus of +3 to spot. Hider rolls his Stealth skill +4DF vs the Looker who rolls his Alertness or Investigation skill +4DF +3 points environmental bonus and see who is the winner.

In both situations the environmental difficulty modifier makes it more difficult for whoever would have difficulty on their roll due to the environmental difficulty modifier.

The problem is they've been misreading "the roll" to mean only what you rolled on the 4df rather than roll+modifiers(stealth+environment+etc...).  I was going to comment on it a while back but I didn't feel like getting pedantic'd to death.

[TheMouse]

Since a Stealth roll is always an opposed roll against an opponent's Alertness or Investigation roll you give the environmental difficulty to whomever would get the benefit of the environmental difficulty modifier on their roll and therefore make it more difficult for his opponent.

So hiding in a dark environment with lots of cover has an environmental bonus of +3 to hide. Hider rolls his Stealth skill +4DF +3 points environmental bonus vs the Looker who rolls his Alertness or Investigation skill +4DF and see who is the winner.

That's not how the rules work. You're actually repeating one of my fixes.

Environmental modifiers affect the difficulty of rolls, not the rolls. I've given page references in this thread.

The way that works by the book: Joe wants to hide in the dark. His difficulty is modified by -3 because of lighting. He rolls. Whatever he gets becomes the difficulty for someone to spot him. Since the modifier is to the difficulty, and not to the Effort, all that the darkness modifier does is make lower Efforts successes, which means that it's actually easier to spot someone in the dark.

Let me put this more concretely.

Let's say that the base difficulty would be 0 to hide. Actually, you know what? I'm gonna use rules without naming Skills. People get caught up on the Skills.

It's difficulty 0 to do a thing. Roll Skill A, and an Effort of 0 or higher succeeds. If someone wants to contest that, they roll Skill B. Because the difficulty is 0, the Effort necessary to contest is 0 or higher.

Now something good happens for the person rolling Skill A. They get a -2 difficulty! Now they need only roll a -2 or higher Effort to succeed. Great! Wait... While they succeed more often, the opposition still only needs to match the Skill A Effort, which now begins at -2 and goes up. So while Skill A succeeds more of the time, Skill B beats it more of the time.

That's my problem. Your mistaken impression of how the rules work is actually one of my proposed fixes, and it does indeed seem to solve the problem. But it's not how the rules in the book actually work.