Question for... Everybody, I Guess

[Interitus]

I read the rules for this particular forum, and I have a quick question about them:

Does the "not posting story ideas so Mr. Butcher's legal butt is covered" ( ) cover posting actual parts of whatever you're writing? Because I would really, really, really like some honest feedback and critiquing from people who have absolutely no reason to lie to me, but still may actually give a damn about what they're doing and know what they're talking about. I simply cannot get that from anybody I know, for various reasons. I'm wondering if you're allowed to do that here, or if there is anyone who wouldn't mind reading a couple things on their own time. Helpa brudda out, please.   

[Interitus]

And... just found an answer to my own question. Dammit.

[Dresdenus Prime]

I'm sure many people in this forum would be more than willing to discuss your ideas through private messaging 

[Interitus]

Well, it's not necessarily the ideas themselves I'm worried about. For the most part, when people just lay out their ideas, nothing really ever looks original or interesting. "The main character is [a personality trait/a creature that denotes certain character structure] who [inner conflict] and goes around [genre genre genre genre]." Formulaic. It's the writing itself that I need pointers with. I think Butcher has shown us that you can make any idea interesting if it's well-written.

But, unfortunately, everyone I know that I take my stuff to does this, without exception: "I read it and I think it's very good," and then the wince-inducing, "for someone your age."

So I'm just looking for people who can give me honest, how-does-this-compare sorts of feedback.
So, yeah.

[Dresdenus Prime]

I'm somewhat in the same boat. I'm currently using three of my friends as "Beta-Readers" for my current work. One the one hand, I'm paranoid about keeping my story safe, so I wanted to use people I knew I could trust. On the other hand, I'm worried they will praise my work no matter how good or bad it is. I made sure to tell them by accepting the responsibility you have to be honest with your critiques.

As for your work and looking for people to critique you, I'd be more than happy to help, but I have little experience in the literary world. The book I'm working on now is my first. Still, if you need someone to help you out, click on my user name and throw me an e-mail, I'll read what you have and be as honest as I can be.

[Aminar]

Honestly, I'd find people you can talk to in person on the subject, people you know and trust.  When they say it's good for someone your age say, Thanks, now what can I do better so it's amazing for someone my age.  Continue the questions until you know what they mean by your age.  I'm going to assume you're in high school somewhere, maybe even middle school.  To most adults that means generically that you are hopelessly naive and that anything you write won't have the kind of depth needed to be good.  They're sort of right, and very very wrong at the same time.  Just get to the bottom of what they mean and work from there.

[Snowleopard]

When someone gives you the "for your age" comment.  Ask that they explain exactly what they mean by that.
Is it your use of words, your vocabulary, your plot, your characterization - WTF do they mean.
As others have said - find someone you trust whether online like here on the Butcher Forum or in person and ask for an honest, no holds barred opinion.  And, most importantly, be open to what they might say.  It doesn't make all of their comments right but you've got to be willing to listen.  I've known people who the second you started to criticize or just comment on their work - completely turned off.
While I don't know about other Forums - most of the people here that you might ask privately about looking at your stuff seem to be pretty trustworthy.  I'd get to know people a bit before I'd ask someone though.

[Interitus]

I'm somewhat in the same boat. I'm currently using three of my friends as "Beta-Readers" for my current work. One the one hand, I'm paranoid about keeping my story safe, so I wanted to use people I knew I could trust. On the other hand, I'm worried they will praise my work no matter how good or bad it is. I made sure to tell them by accepting the responsibility you have to be honest with your critiques.

I did try that, but they still inevitably throw me softballs. When it comes down to it, there are only two or three people I know who really have the knowledge to give me some good pointers, and all of them are much more worried about offending me or hurting my feelings. No amount of explanation will convince them that I can take it, apparently.

As for your work and looking for people to critique you, I'd be more than happy to help, but I have little experience in the literary world. The book I'm working on now is my first. Still, if you need someone to help you out, click on my user name and throw me an e-mail, I'll read what you have and be as honest as I can be.

Okay, thank you. If I don't find a reasonable alternative in the near-ish future, I think I will take you up on this.   

Honestly, I'd find people you can talk to in person on the subject, people you know and trust.  When they say it's good for someone your age say, Thanks, now what can I do better so it's amazing for someone my age.  Continue the questions until you know what they mean by your age.  I'm going to assume you're in high school somewhere, maybe even middle school.  To most adults that means generically that you are hopelessly naive and that anything you write won't have the kind of depth needed to be good.  They're sort of right, and very very wrong at the same time.  Just get to the bottom of what they mean and work from there.

Just now starting college, actually. I decided that I wanted to be an author at some point in sixth grade, though, and I've been writing ever since then. But the first thing I ever seriously tried, back about five years ago, was objectively terrible. It was some sword-and-board fantasy bit made entirely out of cliches and clumsiness. And vampires, because I thought vampires were totally the shiznit.

I realized that taking things to people I know wasn't going to work at about this time - I took the beginning ten chapters to maybe the one person I trusted the most with it. A teacher of mine, who helped me through some personal problems and such. He gave it all back to me with nothing but praise on everything I was doing right. Not a single thing on what I was doing wrong. It was depressing.

I tried a couple others, but I live in a small town. There's really not very many people around here who read, much less know how to critique a novice-level manuscript.

When someone gives you the "for your age" comment.  Ask that they explain exactly what they mean by that.
Is it your use of words, your vocabulary, your plot, your characterization - WTF do they mean.

Generally, I'm fairly sure it means, "I'm just surprised an eighteen-year-old kid is doing more with his computer than looking up porn."

As others have said - find someone you trust whether online like here on the Butcher Forum or in person and ask for an honest, no holds barred opinion.  And, most importantly, be open to what they might say.  It doesn't make all of their comments right but you've got to be willing to listen.  I've known people who the second you started to criticize or just comment on their work - completely turned off.

I think I can handle it. I take criticism very well, considering I more or less do everything wrong anyway.

While I don't know about other Forums - most of the people here that you might ask privately about looking at your stuff seem to be pretty trustworthy.  I'd get to know people a bit before I'd ask someone though.

Yeah, I think you're on to something there. I think I'm going to try getting someone I physically know for beta-reading one more time before resorting to the forums, after the advice I got here. If they try to go easy with me, I'll smack them with my diploma, or throw cigarettes that I bought at them until they don't. If they still try, then I'll get to know a couple people a little better on here and send them some stuff.

[jeno]

I'd suggest popping over to the Absolute Write forums at some point, too. It's a great place to see what other writers in your genre are thinking and they've got a section there just for critique. Also, if you're looking to publish at some point, the Ask an Agent/Ask an Editor and Bewares subforums are invaluable.

Just keep in mind that as a new writer the vast majority of critiques you'll get online will be from other new writers/people who have yet to be published. Not always, but mostly. That doesn't mean they can't give you good advice or that they don't know what they're doing (there's a lot of stuff you can learn from them), but you'll be mostly out of luck if you're holding out for a couple of published authors to look over your stuff.

[Interitus]

I don't mind if they're published or unpublished, as long as they're knowledgeable and willing. Thanks for the suggestion; I'm gonna head over there and check it out.

[prophet224]

Just a couple of other notes -

- Beta readers and critique partners (strangers) will always be hit or miss with their reviews and honesty.
- So will friends/family
- If you are in school for something other than writing, take a creative writing class as one of your electives. Other students often just don't care about your feelings.
- Try checking for local groups. For instance, Maryland has the Maryland Writer's Association with local chapters and critique groups.

[Breandan]

Just beware of "professional snobbery", I've run into it before where a published author or industry type criticizes your work based on how they think it should be written. Frankly, find beta readers from your target audience, from a neutral audience, and from the audience that generally isn't into that kind of book. Compile the common points of their critiques- positive and negative- and you have what the general reception will be. It will help you tweak and edit the book accordingly. I took it a step further and sent it to someone who seriously disliked me personally, and even he admitted (albeit grudgingly) that it was good, and the few criticisms he had were largely valid and easily fixed. So, if even your enemies like it, you know you've done well

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

IME, the very best feedback you can get is from someone who is a moderately better writer than you are.  Not so much better that you can't make sense of what they are saying because what's natural to them is outside your horizons at the moment.  If you find someone like that who's willing to give you feedback, keep them close; they are priceless.  (And you're unlikely to be able to reciprocate at the same level, considering the "moderately better than" thing.)

This advice is based on the position that there is good writing and there is bad writing and it's possible to tell the difference between them, and that one is trying, on the whole, to become a better writer.   

[meg_evonne]

Great question, great discussion, and sound great advice.

I will further suggest that as a writer, young or old, you must be incredibly devoted and passionate about your work. You will always be the best judge of your work, because you must. Do you like what you wrote? Take pride in your own opinion. Yes, over time and as you mature, as we all do, you will find that your personal crit monitor is more than adequate.

As to those reports back that are vague and soft, simply smile, nod, thank them, and then don't ask them to read it again. Most non-writers do not understand what you want, and if they do, then they are obviously not going to be honest enough. OTOH are you listening as closely to their comments as you should? Can you not expand on their thoughts with open ended short questions to lead them along. Perhaps they simply don't know how to crit.

Learning to read critically is not taught well and few can properly express their thoughts--whether being soft or hard.

Keep writing! Keep positive! Keep perspective--after all you are young and your writing will reflect that. Writing young is not a fault, but might be a plus. Perhaps you can use it to your advantage in your writing.

Are you writing your age or are you attempting to write as an older, experienced person? If failing in that attempt, then you deny a great advantage.