Author Topic: List of who/what Thresholds affect?  (Read 5653 times)

Offline Arcteryx

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List of who/what Thresholds affect?
« on: August 02, 2011, 09:03:26 PM »
I've been searching today but can't seem to find an "authoritative" list of the Who's Who That Thresholds Stop From Dropping In For A Visit, or is it *all* supernatural? Trying to figure out why it is that vampires need an invite and werewolves don't. I'd also expect fey to have a hard time coming in to say hello.

Offline devonapple

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Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2011, 09:12:38 PM »
My recent reading indicates the following:

Ghost: absolutely blocked. No chance without an invite. Nada.
BCV: absolutely blocked. No chance without an invite. Nada.
RCV: half-paralyzed (probably a Block against all actions)
WCV: mildly inconvenienced (probably a Block against all supernatural powers)
Demons/entities from Nevernever in ectoplasmic bodies: Block against all actions or something like that (I'm a little unclear)

Also unclear on Fairies.
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
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Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2011, 09:15:50 PM »
When you enter uninvited you leave the bulk of your supernatural power at the door.
- those who are pure supernatural power (spirits, ghosts, etc) can't enter.
- those who need supernatural power to "live" (most black court vampires) can't enter.

Once you have a physical body that can exist without magic then you can go through, if you want to risk it.  During White Knight, Dresden has to weigh entering a room without an invite.  Then there's the Frog Demon from an early book who decides that he doesn't need his magical power against Dresden so pushed through the threshold.

I don't see fairies needing an invite, but I can see them as not bring all their powers passed the threshold.

Then there are the exceptions to the threshold rules - being so powerful that no one notices that they left some power at the door.  I see the elders of the black court like that, as well as fairy queens, Archangels, and the like.  Basically, if it's on that list of heavy weights then I can't see it mattering to the PCs that some power didn't enter the room with it.  Which may be how Green Teeth was able to do stuff when she hadn't been invited in.

Richard

Offline Arcteryx

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Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2011, 09:31:21 PM »
Thanks guys, that helps clarify things quite a bit.

Offline lordoracle

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Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2011, 09:50:01 PM »
I don't see fairies needing an invite, but I can see them as not bring all their powers passed the threshold.

I agree on this. In Changes, the Leansidhe did not need an invite when Harry came home to find her sitting there petting Mister and Martin and Susan were knocked out and cocooned.

When the feds raided his place, he only had Bob take down the wards, not the threshold. So it would have still been there when Harry found Lea there. I am not aware of him ever letting her into his place before.
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Offline Arcteryx

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Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2011, 09:54:24 PM »
OK, so a bit more reading and searching through OW actually gives some more insight into how thresholds affect the beasties. I combined it with what you guys gave me for a reference:

Those who are pure supernatural power (or need supernatural power to live) are Harmed
Black court vampires, ghosts, spirits

Those who have a manifested body are Blocked
Demons (limited to physical capabilities), faerie/fey, red court vampire, mini demons, mini spirits, spell-based constructs (energies encased in ectoplasm)
Exception: demons in a mortal host can still work magic but it would be supressed

Power is Supressed
Enchanted items, magical/spellcasting abilities, supernatural perception, supernatural powers

Interesting Notes
Dreamers dreaming hard enough to form a dreamscape extends their consciousness from the mortal world into the Nevernever, and bypass all defences including thresholds

The bolded items indicate the rule effects of the threshold in action.

How do werewolves fit into this?

If it is the hexenwolf... it is the equivalent of a demon in a mortal host right?

If it is the Alpha type of werewolf, it is a spell that transforms them, but it is a "real" wolf that they've turned into, not an ectoplasmic construct, and they only use physical abilities so they aren't affected.

Let me know if the math is adding up there (or not...) - thanks :)
« Last Edit: August 02, 2011, 10:00:15 PM by Arcteryx »

Offline Arcteryx

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Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2011, 09:57:24 PM »
I agree on this. In Changes, the Leansidhe did not need an invite when Harry came home to find her sitting there petting Mister and Martin and Susan were knocked out and cocooned.

Well, a couple of things there. I don't think Harry's home has any threshold worth mentioning (it is a bachelor pad, Billy even jokes about this on YS230) and Leansidhe is the second most powerful individual in the Winter Court though - she could have left some power at the threshold (whatever it could be) and still had plenty left to work some mojo.

Offline devonapple

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Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2011, 10:10:44 PM »
Then there's the Frog Demon from an early book who decides that he doesn't need his magical power against Dresden so pushed through the threshold.
I see the elders of the black court like that, as well as fairy queens, Archangels, and the like.  Basically, if it's on that list of heavy weights then I can't see it mattering to the PCs that some power didn't enter the room with it.  Which may be how Green Teeth was able to do stuff when she hadn't been invited in.

I thought there was also some amazement from Harry about the Frog Demon being able to hold itself together through the Threshold.

As for Black Court Elders, the literature seems to say that it absolutely stops BCVs cold, and I'm not sure I'd want to waive that for Elders.
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
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Offline SunlessNick

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Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2011, 01:12:54 AM »
Quote
How do werewolves fit into this?  -  Arcteryx
I'm inclined to side with Billy on whether the Alphas use a spell to transform (it looks like a spell to Harry because he's a wizard).  They're a bit bigger bruisier than regular wolves, so it might be worth saying they're blocked when in wolf form - if the wolf body is still considered natural, they might just have trouble changing forms unless invited (say each shift means changing takes an action longer).

For a Hexenwulf, I'd go with blovked in wolf form, and the ability to change into the wolf form suppressed.

For Loup-Garoux, blocked.

For Lycanthropes, suffering suppression to powers.

For wolfweres, werewolves in reverse.

Offline Taran

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Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2011, 03:22:18 AM »
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Offline devonapple

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Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2011, 03:27:50 AM »
Sometimes it seems inconsistent: one massively powerful thing gets stopped cold by a Threshold, while something lesser can sort of blunder its way through with the right combination of apathy, toughness, and non-magical potency.
"Like a voice, like a crack, like a whispering shriek
That echoes on like it’s carpet-bombing feverish white jungles of thought
That I’m positive are not even mine"

Blackout, The Darkest of the Hillside Thickets

Offline Arcteryx

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Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2011, 04:03:06 AM »
I had to go and read over the last story (Aftermath) in Side Jobs again to make sure I didn't remember it wrong, but without giving too much away, a werewolf is able to come through a threshold uninvited - in human form.

Offline lordoracle

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Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2011, 05:58:20 AM »
Well, a couple of things there. I don't think Harry's home has any threshold worth mentioning (it is a bachelor pad, Billy even jokes about this on YS230) and Leansidhe is the second most powerful individual in the Winter Court though - she could have left some power at the threshold (whatever it could be) and still had plenty left to work some mojo.

I'll agree Harry's place does not have a strong threshold, but there is one. He would not invite Susan in to see if his previous invitation was still in effect. Apparently if you invite someone in while they are human and then they are changed into something else like a Red Court Vamp, the original invite no longer counts.
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Offline Masurao

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Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2011, 11:17:08 AM »
I'm inclined to side with Billy on whether the Alphas use a spell to transform (it looks like a spell to Harry because he's a wizard).  They're a bit bigger bruisier than regular wolves, so it might be worth saying they're blocked when in wolf form - if the wolf body is still considered natural, they might just have trouble changing forms unless invited (say each shift means changing takes an action longer).

For a Hexenwulf, I'd go with blovked in wolf form, and the ability to change into the wolf form suppressed.

For Loup-Garoux, blocked.

For Lycanthropes, suffering suppression to powers.

For wolfweres, werewolves in reverse.

I don't feel as if shapechangers would be bothered much, if at all by Thresholds, they just don't pack that much metaphysical muscle. Harry is essentially a human, but has a lot of metaphysical power to draw upon, part of which is left behind if he crosses a Threshold uninvited. However,
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So, apparently wizards have some magic that is internal and loads that is external. Shapeshifters like the Alpha's have, in my mind, all their supernatural power internally, so they might feel something as they shift within a restricting Threshold, but I doubt it hampers them in any real (i.e. mechanical sense).

I would think that a Loup-Garou wouldn't even stop short of any Threshold, as always it is a singularly unique creature.

Same goes for Fae, a typical Troll would be less bothered by the Threshold, as he doesn't have too much power beyond his physical might to throw around, whereas Lea as a lot. Of course, they are more hampered by their ectoplasmic bodies before crossing a Threshold in the first place.

I thought there was also some amazement from Harry about the Frog Demon being able to hold itself together through the Threshold.

As for Black Court Elders, the literature seems to say that it absolutely stops BCVs cold, and I'm not sure I'd want to waive that for Elders.

The Frog Demon was also superpowered by the thunder storm and he had a lot of real muscle to pound Harry into mush, if he had supernatural abilities beyond his body, he wouldn't be able to use them as effectively, or at all.

You might wish to say that BCVs have their power cut off, normally they draw on the ambient energies to animate their bodies, but within a Threshold this is denied. In effect, they would draw upon their own magical powers to keep up and about. A newb BCV would then fall to pieces within mere minutes, whereas an elder might last days, as long as it doesn't start slinging about magically. They are a bit like a golem, an inanimate body with a spirit, which is blocked by the Threshold.

So, in short, I would say that you should judge a critter by the power it can draw upon from outside of him-/her-/itself and what it needs to stay animate.

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: List of who/what Thresholds affect?
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2011, 01:01:42 PM »
I have a slightly different take from some of you.  Here's my take:
  • Spirits cannot cross thresholds as a spirit.  If they can manifest with enough power they may well cross. 
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  • Any physical entity with sufficient power may force it's way through a threshold.  The threshold suppresses supernatural abilities of the uninvited. 
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The real question to me is what effects does that suppression have?

I'd use it as a "barrier" every supernatural action has to surpass.  Every action (attack, block, or maneuver) using a supernatural ability has the difficulty raised by the threshold's value.  Actions which can't overcome the threshold are simply nullified.
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