The truth about Fitz

[Serack]

Bob mentions Archangels as being on the list of entities with full Intellectus.  If you combine that with the WoJ above, that Uriel can't lie (I'd more or less assumed that was true), you've got a difficult character to write--one whose every statement MUST accurately reflect the Dresdenverse as it actually is.

Note that Uriel's dismay over Jack's "three people Harry loves" lie is not a counter-example, due to the distinction between Intellectus and true omniscience.  Uriel had not previously considered that Jack might have lied to Harry, so he didn't know it had happened.  Intellectus requires that a question be brought to the mind of the entity in order for the answer to arrive with it.  True omniscience wouldn't require that (in theory, since it hasn't come up yet in the Dresdenverse).

I don't think it's possible for Uriel to make a statement literally without thinking about it first.  This would mean that Uriel knows with certainty the truth value of his every statement (Intellectus), and that the truth value is always positive (he can't lie).

This does a very good job of articulating my opinions on the matter.  Thanks

[Fyrchick]

 
Perhaps a new thread is in order since the whole WG/Uriel/lying issue is not really on topic?

So I was intrigued by the idea of a child of Tera and MacFinn. I found (or didn't find) 3 things that I had questions about.

The first is a description of MacFinn. I couldn't find anything that mentions red hair. I did a quick search of the text but didn't find anything. Does someone have more patience to find this?

The second is about Tera giving up a child. This may or may not refer to a son, but it sort of answers a question about Tera's motivations.

"Who are you?" I asked her finally.
"One who has lost too many of her family already," she said.
(Fool Moon Ch.26)

The last thing is the mechanics of the curse. According to Chauncy, the curse had 2 components. It was hereditary, passing to someone new "each and every generation" AND that the cursed line of the family would "never, ever die out lasting until the end of days."

Is is a congenital curse or a traveling one? Meaning, is the next curse-ee "chosen" at birth or does it travel when the current curse-ee dies? Did MacFinn have any siblings or other family?

[Vairelome]

Ah, yes, back on topic.

For reference, here's Harry's description of MacFinn (Fool Moon, Ch. 15):

I studied the man a little more closely.  He was big.  He was really big, at least as tall as me and twice as broad.  He was dressed only in a pair of cutoff blue jeans, and those looked like they were ill fit.  He was in a condition best described as "overwhelmingly masculine," hairy-chested and muscled like a professional wrestler.  There was grey in his hair and beard, and there were lines on his face, putting his age at well into maturity.  It was his eyes that showed me the most about him.  They burned green, wild and haunted, fastened on the distant sky now, but heavy with the weight of too much terrible knowledge.  It couldn't have been easy to live with a curse like his.

As far as hair color goes, all it says is "grey in his hair and beard."  From the phrasing, I'd say some base color streaked or speckled with grey, rather than full grey.  Logically, he's not likely to be blond, since Harry wouldn't likely notice a contrast between grey and blond at night in the woods, even with a full moon.  Red is a possibility, but not indicated either way.

I checked the pelt coloration of the loup-garou, later in the book (Fool Moon, Ch. 17):

Its pelt was shaggy, jet-black and matte, except where fresh blood was making it glisten.

You might take from that quote that MacFinn's base hair color was black, though the fact that the loup-garou's pelt was not streaked with grey leaves the question open enough to be debatable, in my opinion.

As far as the curse mechanics go, my guess would be that the curse travels when the current curse-ee dies, but lies dormant if the new recipient is not above a certain age.  I don't really have textual evidence to back that up, beyond MacFinn's Vietnam experience (which, now that I look it up, is more ambivalent on a point than I'd thought).  From Fool Moon, Ch. 15 (emphasis mine):

He nodded.  "It's how I came back from 'Nam.  Everyone else in my platoon died but me.  I knew the full moon was coming.  And I knew that I hated them, hated the soldiers who had killed my friends.  When I changed, I started killing until there wasn't anyone left alive within maybe two miles."

I thought I'd read the assumption that MacFinn's change in Vietnam was his first change.  Based on the text, I'm not sure.  The sentence I put in bold seems to state flat-out that MacFinn at least knew the change was coming, whether or not it was the first, which is a difficult point.  If MacFinn had any idea what the curse would do to him, I think joining the military was a ludicrously poor decision.  Basic training lasts longer than a month, I believe--it's not like you can guarantee your own schedule to have monthly 3-day vacations like clockwork.

If the MacFinn/Tera West theory is true, I seriously hope one of the good guys figures it out before the poor kid's first change.

[Bones]

If MacFinn is Celtic it's highly likely he has some redhead in his genetics. It doesn't matter what his hair color is, his son could easily be a redhead. My husband has red hair and neither of his parents do.

[Fyrchick]

If MacFinn is Celtic it's highly likely he has some redhead in his genetics. It doesn't matter what his hair color is, his son could easily be a redhead. My husband has red hair and neither of his parents do.

True. But its seems when Jim takes time to be as specific about a description it's always worth taking into consideration. In this case I think it's a deliberate clue or deliberate red herring (so to speak.) If we take genetics into account just about anyone could be the father. There is red hair in Mongolia and Italy... it's an easier stretch with MacFinn being Irish and all that, but I think we need to look for possibilities in the characters already presented with red hair.

Perhaps Murphy had a kid she didn't tell anyone about (nose) or Agent Harris fathered a kid someplace.

I've been trying to remember who else has red hair. (Other than Agent Harris in Fool Moon.) What about his skin color? Anyone else described that way?

[Bones]

I seem to be terrible with hair colors. I always thought Butters had reddish hair when he was introduced. And Morgan had auburn hair mixed in with the gray. So I can't be relied upon to remember most characters' hair color unless it's mentioned several times. Murphy's a blond, right? 

Another source of the Native-American coloring could be Listens To Wind, though.

As for MacFinn and the hair color being a strong hint, I still think Tera West's coloring and eye description plus the fact that MacFinn was Irish might be enough to cover Fitz's description. MacFinn's description doesn't really lend itself to any real specifics except the green eyes, I think.

[Thork]

My point is that, from my admittedly limited discussions with some of those people, contemporary Asatru do not have it as a core component of their faith that other gods are false, while other gods being a priori false is a regular component of at least such bits of contemporary Christianity as i am familiar with.  (I had a Catholic schooling.)

Therefore, what Jim is doing in the DV is a fictional universe in which we have, thus far, seen one of the core cosmological axioms of Christianity been demonstrated to be untrue, and we have not seen anything similar with regard to the Aesir.

Well, all depends on which particular branch of Christianity you're talking about. Get gnostic enough and just about anything's possible.  Beyond that though, there's a difference between "false gods" in the sense of "gods who exist, but are not God" vs. "false gods who do not exist." It's certainly possible to read the Bible as stating that other gods exist, you're just not supposed to worship them, because they aren't the one true overarching universal Capital-G God.

[raidem]

I found another candidate who had a dark complexion...
The first woman we'd seen enter the apartment faced me.  She had a dark complexion, dark eyes, short, dark straight hair that made me think she might have had some Native Americans in the family a generation or three back.  She was maybe five foot four, late thirties.  She had a serious kind of face, with faint pensive lines between her brows, and from the way she stood, blocking the doorway with solidly planted feet, I got the impression that she could be a bulldog when necessary.  "No one here has broken any of the Laws, Warden,"  she said in a quiet voice.  "Gosh, that's a relief," I said.  "Anna Ash?"
Anna was a member of the Ordo Lebes who had hired Elaine to protect them from the killer in White Night.  She later was found dead, killed by "Priscilla" or the Skavis white vampire.   One thing that seems to eliminate her as a candidate though is that Elaine says "Some of them didn't have any dependents.  Like Anna."  She states this in response to Harry informing her that he had gotten reparations out of the White Court.  A were gild for their dependents."  Harry and Elaine then use reparations for Anna to build the Paranet.

[Arjan]

I believe if Gard had meant to deny that outright she'd have denied it outright, and coy implications are not an outright denial.

This is typically a subject where you can not really expect outright answers because other answers are a lot more fun and outright answers make it a lot more serious.  But I think her reaction quite convincing.

Besides I have read WOJ somewhere when asked if Gard was with Hendriks he answered that Hendriks was with Gard.

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,12157.msg535056.html#msg535056

[sgt_majorette]

...If the MacFinn/Tera West theory is true, I seriously hope one of the good guys figures it out before the poor kid's first change.

Or maybe he can't change and that's why Tera had to drop him off in human society. Maybe she had him taken to Chicago in hopes that Dreden or one of his allies would find him.

[Serack]

This is typically a subject where you can not really expect outright answers because other answers are a lot more fun and outright answers make it a lot more serious.  But I think her reaction quite convincing.

Besides I have read WOJ somewhere when asked if Gard was with Hendriks he answered that Hendriks was with Gard.

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,12157.msg535056.html#msg535056

If what I said in Reply #86 wasn't clear enough, I'll reiterate.

Please don't allow this subject to continue to hijack the thread.

If the MacFinn/Tera West theory is true, I seriously hope one of the good guys figures it out before the poor kid's first change.

Given the series track record, I suspect that Harry's ignorance of this is going to cause him pain somehow.

[raidem]

Hmm, I was just thinking perhaps Ivy and Fitz, allegedly the descendant of MacFinn, will get together at some point and procreate.  The MacFinn's curse lasts until the end of days and the Archive's purpose is to last after some said calamity to help civilization rebuild.  Descendants of Fitz, if allegation is true, and Ivy would give greater likelihood that Archive would survive until appointed time.  Alternatively, it would be satisfying if Maggie and Fitz got together, we could surmise that Harry's line doesn't die out.

[jeno]

Fitz is ten years older than Maggie. 

[raidem]

Well, perhaps in like 15 years or so.

[badassassin]

since tera is a wolf were, (although really, if being human and going wolf is were-wolf, shouldn't the opposite be were-human?) wouldn't it be likely that she gave birth as a wolf? why would she be human during that? also, if that is true, fitz would know about it, and why wouldn't you turn into a wolf to fight a human? a smart wolf could have taken aristedes easily. and lastly, i never thought tera was all that powerful. to play the wolf card again is kinda to just bring billy back. we have a wolf hero in the df already, quite a few actually. why another? and what use is that? even though billy is an adult wolf, harry would easily beat him. fitz should almost definitely be able to contribute majorly in the Bat. I'm gonna opine a nay to the tera west theory, and shoot in a more wizardly direction. or sotc. or both.