Dissolution

[ARedthorn]

So- the game I'm playing in (as opposed to the one I'm running that I've been asking questions about)... I'm working with a water evocator. It's a low enough power level game that I couldn't really afford to play a wizard, and our group has a couple ritualists anyway (a conjuror and not sure about the other). I'm mostly going the frost angle for water, but also some other decay-type effects.

My question is this. Let's say we're outside a building and need to get in... there's a door, and it's locked... no one has burglary. Can I use water Evocation to melt the door (a la Ramirez style water/decay bolts), creating a hole we can enter through? It fits evocation, in the quick-and-dirty way of things, but... the effect is getting through a locked door (ie, it's more like it's simulating a skill)- more like thaumaturgy's solve improbable/impossible problems function, or even creating a lasting change.

It's certainly not a block or counterspell... Don't really see it as a maneuver either (placing a "no door" aspect on the building, sure... but...?)... and although it could be an attack, but then comes debate as to the stress value of the door vs the power of my attack, etc... forcing the GM into an asspull.
It seems perfectly reasonable from the veiwpoint of the visual, in-play moment to say that I'd be able to do it... but can I?

[Rubycon]

I'm not so sure how to translate it rulewise, but I would definitly say that it works. Maybe you could describe the spell mor precisly. For an example, you could bring water into the frame and turn it to ice very quickly. That should break the frame (Romans used ice to work on stone...).

[Tsunami]

It's a magical representation of the "Breaking things" trapping of Might.

Easily done with Evocation. Simply summon X shifts of power and pit them against the door's difficulty (see YS:321 for durability of things).

That would be a direct contest. the simplest and easiest way to do it.

If you want to get more complicated.

Example: Exterior Door, Difficulty is (Good +3)

Defense is (Good +3) i always assume neutral rolls for objects
Stress capacity is at OOOO (Difficulty good means 2 additional boxes)

Now simply start attacking the door with your magic until you take it out. Objects usually do not take consequences.

So, a Power:4 Evocation at 4 control or more will take out the door in one shot.

[Rubycon]

So no armor would be assumed for an object?

[Tsunami]

So no armor would be assumed for an object?

I've seen no mention of armor for objects in the Rules... so yeah, no Armor for Objects.

[CaptFisher]

The example seems good to me, and if a ST wanted a armored door he could give it a Armored or BFD and then compel the aspect to keep the door around for a extra turn or two.

[ARedthorn]

Well, that answers the specific question, but not the general one (that, admittedly, I never asked)...

Warden Ramirez needs through a door, and unlike Harry, has no skill with picking locks, so he turns the door into a hole.
----> This makes sense as an attack, as above. But what about when a Wizard doesn't want to do mass amounts of property damage?
So Dresden stops him, and pops the door open from the inside using his trick with the staff and force applied to the emergency crash bar.
----> This fits perfectly into the realm of Thaumaturgy's solving improbable/impossible problems quite neatly. He's using Thaumaturgy to simulate a burglary check with the perk that he's able to open the door quickly and without an external lock or handle. He can manage it no-prep, no-stress as long as he doesn't exceed his Lore or Discipline respectively, which is really no problem.

Once inside the warehouse, they get bowled over by the Kinetomancer they've been hunting, who escapes past them outside. He runs... Fast.
---->He could have Inhuman speed, but since he's a kinetomancer, I'd assume he's using magic to enhance his speed... but how exactly? He'd have to have Discipline, Conviction AND Lore all at least +4 to outstrip Harry's Athletics by much... and I don't see a small-time sorceror having that high of a lore. He could have used a maneuver ala evocation to put a handful of aspects on himself (and keep them up) that he can tag or FP.
Fortunately Morgan's outside. Unfortunately, the Kinetomancer's on the other side of a tall fence. Rather than letting the kinetomancer gain ground while he tries to climb it, Morgan pulls a beautiful peace of earth magic, makes himself nearly weightless, and clears the fence easily.
---->Morgan's more than capable of pulling this off as thaumaturgy- subbing for his athletics as a no-prep, no-stress casting to get him over the fence. Similarly, he could use Evocation to place an aspect or two on himself for a round, then tag them to improve his athletics roll... but that costs him a stress AND 2 turns (one to cast the spell and one to roll athletics to clear the fence)- plenty of time for the sorceror to get away... making Thaumaturgy... faster than Evocation, in some cases? I'd almost rather let single-round effects like this fall under evocation's purview, at least SOME of the time.

[Masurao]

Well, that answers the specific question, but not the general one (that, admittedly, I never asked)...

Warden Ramirez needs through a door, and unlike Harry, has no skill with picking locks, so he turns the door into a hole.
----> This makes sense as an attack, as above. But what about when a Wizard doesn't want to do mass amounts of property damage?
So Dresden stops him, and pops the door open from the inside using his trick with the staff and force applied to the emergency crash bar.
----> This fits perfectly into the realm of Thaumaturgy's solving improbable/impossible problems quite neatly. He's using Thaumaturgy to simulate a burglary check with the perk that he's able to open the door quickly and without an external lock or handle. He can manage it no-prep, no-stress as long as he doesn't exceed his Lore or Discipline respectively, which is really no problem.

I  understand what you are trying to say, but you might be overthinking this situation. Why would he need a Burglary check, if he simply uses the handlebar to open it? There isn't any real skill involved to open the door in that way.

Once inside the warehouse, they get bowled over by the Kinetomancer they've been hunting, who escapes past them outside. He runs... Fast.
---->He could have Inhuman speed, but since he's a kinetomancer, I'd assume he's using magic to enhance his speed... but how exactly? He'd have to have Discipline, Conviction AND Lore all at least +4 to outstrip Harry's Athletics by much... and I don't see a small-time sorceror having that high of a lore. He could have used a maneuver ala evocation to put a handful of aspects on himself (and keep them up) that he can tag or FP.
Fortunately Morgan's outside. Unfortunately, the Kinetomancer's on the other side of a tall fence. Rather than letting the kinetomancer gain ground while he tries to climb it, Morgan pulls a beautiful peace of earth magic, makes himself nearly weightless, and clears the fence easily.
---->Morgan's more than capable of pulling this off as thaumaturgy- subbing for his athletics as a no-prep, no-stress casting to get him over the fence. Similarly, he could use Evocation to place an aspect or two on himself for a round, then tag them to improve his athletics roll... but that costs him a stress AND 2 turns (one to cast the spell and one to roll athletics to clear the fence)- plenty of time for the sorceror to get away... making Thaumaturgy... faster than Evocation, in some cases? I'd almost rather let single-round effects like this fall under evocation's purview, at least SOME of the time.

Here I wonder how you would use Thaumaturgy to make Morgan jump like that? There just isn't the time for that. Also, it would be true that he could do it with Evocation and it might cost him stress and some time, but that's just one of the lesser downsides to magic: it doesn't make you physically better easily. If you want to do such a thing on the fly, you could use an enchanted item or potion, or Evocation with a supplemental action to start running (dunno if this is actually possible, though), but it is never as effective as simply have an inherent supernatural power to do such things.

As for the kinetomancer speeding himself up, this seems a bit the same to me as above, it just makes more sense he has an enchanted item or potion, than an Evocation maneuver. If you want a kinetomancer to be faster than normal due to his magical abilities, use Inhuman Speed or Modular Abilities to simulate this and add your own flavor. This works better and easier and you don't need to think of how he makes himself faster with a spell, e.g. does he hurtle himself forward with his own power?

Don't forget that Harry tells us it is very difficult to affect your own body with magic, just making your muscles stronger doesn't mean your skeleton can withstand the weight of lifting a car, was his example. This also goes for extra speed, your muscles are enhanced, but the strain on your tendons/ligaments might snap them, which is why it easier to do potions for these effects, as they are safer. Consequently, affecting yourself with Evocation is dangerous as Hell ... heck. Every bit you want to change, you need to be able to envision, understand, otherwise things go even more wrong...

[TheMouse]

By the printed rules, there are two ways to bust through a door:

* Break them -- Rules on page 320. Base 2 stress, doesn't take Consequences, treat item quality as Endurance for increasing stress track. Item defends with its quality as a Skill rating.

* Break through them -- Rules on page 321. Roll Might versus the difficulty determined by the handy dandy chart. It seems reasonable that Shifts of Power could be used to determine the Might rating of an Evocation. To avoid extraneous rolling, I'd personally just assume that if you build more SoPs than the door, it opens.

In an unrelated Fate hack I did for an Exalted game, items have defense ratings, stress tracks, and armour (if the weapon/armour modification rules are in use). Different Consequences rate whether the thing has been bypassed or destroyed outright. The size of items rate its Scale, which grants resistance or even immunity to normal damage (which can be negated by the powers of whomever if bashing the thing down).

[ARedthorn]

Mouse- helpful in the immediate. Missed those rules, thanks for the page numbers.

Masurao- I may be overthinking the situation somewhat, but to me, that's the point of a forum. After all, with the situation right in front of me as a GM, I'd likely just rule whatever works best for the game and not worry about it. On a forum, I'll then debate my own ruling.

As for Dresden's getting through the door- absolutely a burglary check. Door is locked, he's trying to get in = burglary check. No external lock or even door handle (as with most firedoors) = burglary by thaumaturgy. Sure, he's bypassing the lock at this point, but he's still solving the impossible problem of getting through a locked door. I'd set the DC as if it were a locked door he could pick with burglary and have him pop it that way. The skill involved in opening the door that way is focusing his mind, and projecting the force through a solid, probably opaque door. At least as much skill required there as for me to do it using a bent metal rod/crook slipped through the doors, turned so the crook catches the latch, and pulling it in... which is one way to burglarize a locked door.
Textbook use of thaumaturgy, and I have no problem with it.

Here I wonder how you would use Thaumaturgy to make Morgan jump like that? There just isn't the time for that. Also, it would be true that he could do it with Evocation and it might cost him stress and some time, but that's just one of the lesser downsides to magic: it doesn't make you physically better easily. If you want to do such a thing on the fly, you could use an enchanted item or potion, or Evocation with a supplemental action to start running (dunno if this is actually possible, though), but it is never as effective as simply have an inherent supernatural power to do such things.

Thaumaturgy doesn't seem to me like it NEEDS more time and symbols to work... just that you can use them to great effect. The text explicitly says that you need the symbols to pull something off without line of sight or at great range or both. I think the time mechanic is exactly for extra juice.
If your Lore is good enough, you don't need to take time for prep.
If your Conviction and Discipline are good enough, you can put enough shifts into the spell in a single action to complete it... in a single action.
If the effect is simulating a skill roll (in this case, athletics), then you get the benefits... in a single action.

See the above with Harry's using magic to get through the door. The door is opaque- which means he's affecting magic without line of sight (manifesting raw force inside the door, where he can't see)... this means it can't possibly be evocation. We don't see him using a potion or an enchanted item to do this, and the books refer to him drawing in his will, and using the staff as a symbollic focus for projecting the force. This sounds, walks, talks, and quacks like thaumaturgy...
Yet only takes a couple seconds (single action), and the benefit is immediate.

Also- not suggesting Morgan change his body- suggesting he make it lighter... not by hollowing his bones out- using gravity magic, well within earth's purveiw. He could just as easily use a powerful gust of wind, if he were good at that.

[Masurao]

Okay, I misunderstood what you had in mind with the door, I was thinking of a fire escape door, which opens all the time if you use the handlebar

About your thaumaturgy-in-one-turn example, I plead my ignorance of the rules! :p I agree it could be possible, but other people will be more classified to judge that. It sounds more like a mix-and-match of evocation and thaumaturgy and I'm saying that because I have the whole "Thaumaturgy-at-the-speed-of-Evocation"-through-Sponsored-Magic in the back of my head. If Sponsored magic explicitly states such, would it still be as interesting if you could already do that in the manner you described? Again, I have read some things only once, so I might misremember or simple have too little information. (Still working on correcting that!)

I understood you'd want Morgan to manipulate gravity, but I was thinking of the kinetomancer when I spoke of changing your body.

[ARedthorn]

Ah... in the case of the kinetomancer... erm.

I'd always thought of a kinetomancer as someone who just projects kinetic energy, similar to Harry...

(click to show/hide)

Ghost Story, on the other hand, introduces one very breifly as a lesser villian... and he acts exactly like this. He doesn't seem to be toting any potions or enchanted items (unless they're small and well-hidden), or even foci... but he moves very quickly- by applying the kinetic energy to his own body. Not sure how I'd go about statting him up, to be honest.

We have fire escape doors at work that open when you push the bar, but only from the inside (crash bar disengages the lock and the door swings open freely). The rest of the time, they're locked, and outside have no handles or access of any kind. Given the descriptions in the book, I assumed them to be similar.

I could be badly misreading the rules myself- but given you're operating a ritual <= Lore, you don't have any prep to do... and if your conviction's good enough to complete it in one round... I don't see it taking any longer.
For that matter, it means that given a character with a lore, conviction and discipline all at 4 or higher (not hard if you're at least chest deep), you can simulate any other skill at +4 you want on the fly using magic... no stress (cause you're not exceeding your conviction), no extra time cost (cause you're not exceeding your lore or conviction), and as long as you roll well on your discipline... poof. Wa-la. Jack of all trades, master of all trades.

I don't like it, but don't see anything in the RAW to suggest otherwise. The only restriction is that you'd have to (as the abusing player) come up with a reasonable visual to match what you're pulling off (Subbing for Intim? Magical Aura of Nasty Special Effects. Subbing for Empathy? Better not be reading their mind, lawbreaker. Subbing for guns? Um... how?)

[devonapple]

There is debate about whether an "easy" Thaumaturgy Ritual (when you have enough Lore and Discipline to crank it out in two exchanges: one to gather the energy, one to cast it) fits into "combat exchanges." The RPG book indicates that the easiest ritual still takes a few minutes to do. Unfortunately, Exchanges can range wildly in how much time is assumed. Also, there are some key magical spells in the novels which seem to be working on a combat-time (short Exchanges) which are counted as Thaumaturgy in the book. Opening Ways to the Nevernever is one such gray area.

[Richard_Chilton]

Ah... in the case of the kinetomancer... erm.

Just a quick note:
I've replied to your idea in the DFRPG Spoiler forum, speculating on how it was done.

Richard

[InFerrumVeritas]

There is debate about whether an "easy" Thaumaturgy Ritual (when you have enough Lore and Discipline to crank it out in two exchanges: one to gather the energy, one to cast it) fits into "combat exchanges." The RPG book indicates that the easiest ritual still takes a few minutes to do. Unfortunately, Exchanges can range wildly in how much time is assumed. Also, there are some key magical spells in the novels which seem to be working on a combat-time (short Exchanges) which are counted as Thaumaturgy in the book. Opening Ways to the Nevernever is one such gray area.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Time Chart.

It's pretty easy to do.  It's three steps up the time chart from "a few minutes" to "a few moments" and four to "instant."  Add one to the complexity for each step.