Technomancer

[Richard_Chilton]

Sponsored magic might not come from within you but you still have the "freewill leads to interference" problem.

When Dresden sees a nasty who is able to use a credit card, he goes with "non-human" rather "sponsored magic" because it's the person challenging the magic, not the source of the magic, that causes a problem.

There are some WoJ posts about why magic interferes with the environment and about it going from curdling milk to frying electrons - they make good reading and explain some of what's going on behind the scenes.

Richard

(Edited to remove double sig)

[Masurao]

Sponsored magic might not come from within you but you still have the "freewill leads to interference" problem.

When Dresden sees a nasty who is able to use a credit card, he goes with "non-human" rather "sponsored magic" because it's the person challenging the magic, not the source of the magic, that causes a problem.

There are some WoJ posts about why magic interferes with the environment and about it going from curdling milk to frying electrons - they make good reading and explain some of what's going on behind the scenes.

Richard

Richard

Come now, do you really need to sign it twice? I already am prostrate before your wisdom, I cannot handle twice that!

But seriously, I read those posts, or some of them at least, and I guess I reasoned that Sponsored Magic comes from a non-conflicted source it doesn't interfere. Didn't think about the fact it is a mortal channeling it and thus he can't be 100% committed to it.

[Richard_Chilton]

Come now, do you really need to sign it twice? I already am prostrate before your wisdom, I cannot handle twice that!

But seriously, I read those posts, or some of them at least, and I guess I reasoned that Sponsored Magic comes from a non-conflicted source it doesn't interfere. Didn't think about the fact it is a mortal channeling it and thus he can't be 100% committed to it.

Sorry about that - I came to the end of the post, then went back and edited it.  My name had dropped below the bottom of the edit window where I didn't see it so I added it again.

Back on topic, it could depend on how much control the mortal has over the magic.  It the PC is tapping an IoP then I can see that working differently than challenging the power through himself.  If that makes sense.

Richard

[Masurao]

Lots of sense actually. If the 'conduit' is an item, any driving force behind it would wholly be the sponsor's. If a human is the 'conduit', then it is only logical to assume he also acts like a filter, changing the energy as it flows through him or her.

[Radijs]

You... really don't read the posts you reply to, do you?
Wireless. Keyboard. Outside. The. Circle.
Computer. Inside. Circle.
Wizard. Outside. Circle.

Electrons being sent wilfully by the user through the circle. I don't know how much mass is needed to break a circle. But it would probably erode before too long.

[Masurao]

Electrons being sent wilfully by the user through the circle. I don't know how much mass is needed to break a circle. But it would probably erode before too long.

This is where you can get really, really technical. Electrons aren't really a physical object, like a camera roll holder. The keyboard sends the electrons, not the mortal, otherwise you might say that blowing on a circle would too break it. That it might erode quickly is something I can imagine, but you could easily create a more permanent circle and reactivate it if it erodes.

[DFJunkie]

I don't think that mass breaks a circle per se, will does. 

A magical construct like a circle is imagination reinforced with will.  A wizard who uses a circle to insulate technology against hexing has to imagine that the circle is cutting off the device from outside interference.  If the same wizard is typing on something outside the circle and watching it impact the device inside the circle it would be something of a challenge to imagine the area within the circle as separate.  Not that it couldn't be done, but that's some zen shit right there.

[ARedthorn]

Again- I point to Butters in a circle with a GPS... that GPS was sending signal to an orbital satellite or series of cell towers in order to get its own location.
Unless you're willing to rule that that satellite happened to be directly overhead and that circles work all the way out into space... he was sending a signal through the circle. Probably intentionally, and therefore willfully. Hence wireless keyboard.
(even if you are willing to rule that, then the satellite has problems too... what with it sending signals to other satellites, etc)

As far as the in-story explanations go, it has to be a combination of physical force driven by mortal will (hence why you don't have to worry about dust in the wind, or a demon throwing a rock)... presumably signal doesn't count. So far, I've allowed my players to get past the "cell-phones are the canaries of magic" issue by keeping them turned off until needed, then making their call from inside a circle, while our wizard looks sheepish.

Even so, they've needed to set aside a special budget for burn phones (pun intended).

[devonapple]

The main liability with the whole Wizard+Computer equation (aside from it being non-canonical, but that is waived for the purposes of discussion) is something physical crossing whichever Circle happens to be extant.

With a wireless keyboard/mouse and a rechargeable laptop computer (unplugged, in a Circle) accessing the Internet wirelessly, with the wireless transmitter some distance from the Wizard, this is theoretically plausible, though has ergonomic/vision challenges for the user - also, keyboards and wireless routers will need replacing regularly. Integrating a USB-powered projector would allow the laptop to project to a screen large enough for the Wizard to see more effectively, but would run down the battery more quickly.

The Butters-GPS example is a common component of these discussions, so it should be taken as understood that wireless signals aren't Circle-breaking. Nor should light be - electronic or otherwise. Power cables, however, are, and that's the most obvious barrier. Without reliable access to power, peripherals are limited: you can't really hook up a large-screen monitor or a printer.

[Discipol]

You... really don't read the posts you reply to, do you?
Wireless. Keyboard. Outside. The. Circle.
Computer. Inside. Circle.
Wizard. Outside. Circle.

You'd go through wireless keyboards like mad, but... the computer should be safe.

But- you are right- This is Dresden, and magic/tech are supposed to be inimical. Trying to work around that... not quite appropriate.
My idea about using a circle was more of a funny joke than anything else. That, I thought, was clear from context.

While I'm here though... no reason sponsored magic should upset tech, right?

I do not, but keyboards are technology, he hexes that. Wireless waves are energy and since magic and energy are kinda the same thing, hexing can occur as jamming of that, or you type Q and the computer receives the instruction "self destruct". You are really trying to scratch our ear with a sword.

[seandageek]

We're using Technomancers in the game we just started based in Los Alamos, NM. We've taken a different tack on the Technomancer. Technology is magic in our world. A Technomancer is typically a minor talent who through long complicated rituals, called 'experiments', codifies a magical process to the point where non-magical humans believe in and can use the magic. Normal mortals don't understand the magic behind the tech but are given words like 'electron', 'hard drive', and 'cell phone' to reinforce their belief that a technology works and help activate the magic. With newer technology mortals don't always believe strong enough or in large enough numbers and the tech breaks. These incidents are referred to as 'bugs'. Wizards and the like, who change reality through their will and belief, cause havoc with the delicate balance of belief built into newer tech (older tech is believed in more strongly and takes more to overcome).

[devonapple]

We're using Technomancers in the game we just started based in Los Alamos, NM. We've taken a different tack on the Technomancer. Technology is magic in our world....Wizards and the like, who change reality through their will and belief, cause havoc with the delicate balance of belief built into newer tech (older tech is believed in more strongly and takes more to overcome).

So, you're playing "Mage: the Ascension"?

[seandageek]

Yes but flavored a bit more towards Robert Heinlein's "Waldo" and using a better rules system in a better setting.    It probably helps that half of my group are Physiomancers (aka. physicists) in real life.

[Roxy Rocket]

I think that when you ask the question 'Is it consistent with the dresden-verse?' and whether electrons count as objects for breaking a magic circle you miss the big picture.

Those maxims at the start of the RPG book are about stories more than setting. They're about a Star Wars where the empire will fall and the Galaxy is saved because Luke redeems his father, not because their economy doesn't work or their leader is assassinated. It's difference between The Matrix and Inception or Star Trek and Stephen King.

Reconciling magic and science into a Theory of Everything just doesn't feel like a very Dresden-ee thing to do.

[ARedthorn]

No, that's agreed. It's not very dresden-y... but I would be amused to see a young mage who just... couldn't give tech up and kept trying to find a way (and of course, failing)- That is dresden-ee.