Balancing of Powers

[Guldor]

Hi there!

I`m new to this board and from Germany, so please excuse any misspellings or bad grammar.

Now to my problem or question as you like:

Don`t you think that the supernatural speed powers are a little bit weak? Sure the athletic bonus rocks and since this skill can be widely used it can also be used for a lot of maneuvers etc. But I would think that the comparable powers like supernatural strength or endurance are "better" especially if it comes to fighting. Wouldn`t it seem logical to you if the three speed powers would grant a +1/+2/+3 (inhuman/supernatural/mythic) to unarmed and weapon fighting like some kind of complement action? To me it seems that it would be much more difficult to dodge or parry a much faster opponent. Of course then speed would be a little bit too strong for me. Has somebody thought also about this and if, have you got any good solutions for this problem.

Greetings
Guldor

[NicholasQuinn]

Welcome.

Personally I think the speed powers are balanced as it is, and very useful at that - definitely not 'weak'. The bonus to athletics trumps Strength powers for one reason; their bonus is only relevant if they can hit you. Speed powers make that far more difficult. Whilst the 'upgrade' you're suggesting would definitely seem logical, it would unbalance the power; making it far too good.

I'd suggest manoeuvres, and perhaps declarations/assessments to represent any bonus you'd get from being faster - although I'm not sure the latter two would work. A stunt could also work. If I'm not mistaken, one of the Vampire's in Our World has a stunt that gives them a bonus if they move zones before an attack. Coupled with a Speed power, that would be pretty decent.

I've not really thought about any modifications, as I do not believe they are necessary. But the above might help you.

[Rubycon]

Nearly in every roleplaying game I know, speed is more important than strength, especially when it is enhanced beyond "normal" capacity. And as nicholas wrote, Athletics is a by far more versatile skill than Might, so as in a scene where a supernatural strong character can use his power, it would certainly look very impressive, but another character with supernatural speed would have ten more scenes for everyone like that where his speed is much mor useful, just not as impressive.

[Guldor]

Thank you for your fast answers. I think I see your point and it`s right that speed is often usable in non combat situations. But my imagination still tells me that somebody who is fast as hell should be a better fighter without any special maneuvers. But of course I see the point of balancing problems. I have to admit that I´m not quite happy with this power but it´s not such a big deal either.

[EldritchFire]

Personally, I think that the speed powers are overpowered. Heck, let's look at inhuman speed. For -2 refresh, you get:
+4 initiative (that's -2 refresh right there)
+1 to all athletics rolls (that's about -1 refresh)
no penalty on supplemental action move (-1 refresh)
2-point reduction in stealth penalties due to movement (-1 refresh)

That's -5 refresh worth of stuff for only -2 refresh! Underpowered? I think not!

Remember, powers are just a collection of stunts that are a bit more powerful. The blanket +1 to athletics is "a bit more powerful" than a normal stunt.

-EF

[TheMouse]

The Speed powers are awesome. They give offensive ability in the form of initiative, defensive ability in the form of dodge bonuses, tactical movement bonuses in the form of reflexive movement AND sprint roll bonuses, and they give stealth bonuses (which are useful in and out of conflicts). You get bonuses to Athletics, Alertness, and Stealth.

In comparison, Strength powers are purely offensive. You get a bonus to Might, and to whatever rolls are modified by Might.

Toughness compares even less favourably.

In short, Speed powers rock the house. They're not quite broken like Dexterity and Celerity in the old World of Darkness, but they're really good.

[ways and means]

Don,t forget that with speed and ranged weapons you can never get hit by moving zones each round, so keeping a minimum of two zones between you and the enemy. 

[Guldor]

  Ok I see all of your points. I`m just started to lead a small (in fact very small with me and my girlfriend) Dresdenfile Game and I often think too much about certain powers. I think I am more some kind of storyteller and rules should support this, which is defenitely the case with the Fate system. But when it comes to fight rules I get really picky, although there are not such a lot of fights in my stories. Especially my experiences with the WOD (this goes to you Mouse  ) had made me very sensitive to supernatural speed. There the speed powers are really ridiculous mighty, so I think you are all right and the speed powers are good as they are. What do you think: When somebody describes a maneuver, like "I want to use my supernatural speed to send a hailstorm of attacks on my opponent to weaken his defense" Would you think it would be a good idea to complement the weapon (or fist) skill roll with athletics, so the player normally would get +1 to his throw (through the athletics bonus from speed). Or would you think even this would be too unbalanced?

[EdgeOfDreams]

What do you think: When somebody describes a maneuver, like "I want to use my supernatural speed to send a hailstorm of attacks on my opponent to weaken his defense" Would you think it would be a good idea to complement the weapon (or fist) skill roll with athletics, so the player normally would get +1 to his throw (through the athletics bonus from speed). Or would you think even this would be too unbalanced?

It'd be unbalanced. Because why would my fencer with Inhuman Speed ever NOT describe his attacks that way for a free +1?  Bonuses to Fists/Guns/Weapons always need to be scrutinized very carefully.

[Guldor]

@edge of dreams: To clarify my point: I´m not talking about a regular attack. I´m talking about a maneuver to place an aspect like TOO OCCUPIED TO SEE THE NEXT ONE COMING or something like that.

[computerking]

@edge of dreams: To clarify my point: I´m not talking about a regular attack. I´m talking about a maneuver to place an aspect like TOO OCCUPIED TO SEE THE NEXT ONE COMING or something like that.

I don't think there should be a bonus in such a case, without spending Fate points and invoking Aspects, for example if the character has a High Concept of "Speedster Swordsman". That +2 should be enough.

[sinker]

Personally I think the best way to do what you're trying to do would be declarations. Declarations are like maneuvers but take no in game time or action, because they're statements of fact. Declare that your opponent is "Blinded by my speed" or "Too slow to follow my movements." Then tag that for a +2. If the GM gets fed up with that he may make you start maneuvering instead, but that's not too bad.

PS, Your grammar is better than most native english speakers, but then again we don't spend as much time studying it.

[EldritchFire]

@edge of dreams: To clarify my point: I´m not talking about a regular attack. I´m talking about a maneuver to place an aspect like TOO OCCUPIED TO SEE THE NEXT ONE COMING or something like that.

That could easily be an athletics roll, not a fists/weapons/etc roll. You're moving so fast, it's hard to see you. That's an athletics manoeuvre for sure! Also, you'd get a +1 bonus to the roll because of inhuman speed! Bonus!

-EF

[Sanctaphrax]

I tend to assume that some of the benefits of your powers are included in your skills. Perhaps your Superb Fists would only be Fair if not for your Supernatural Speed.

This interpretation has no mechanical effects whatsoever, barring odd compels.

[Guldor]

Thank you all guys for your thoughts. I think now I have got a wider view for the speed powers. I`m still thinking that it should be possible to complement some Weapon maneuvers with your athletic skill, because I see no difference in allowing a +1 to the weapon roll to get the aspect tag or using the athletic skill itself for the maneuver. It could even be "less powergaming" if the weapon skill isn`t so high.
Nevertheless I won´t change the power itself in my game, because I admit it would be to powerful the way I described it.

@sinker: Thank you :-) And yeah in school we learned a lot of english grammar. But nowadays it`s more or less intuitive how i use the different times etc.