Harry Dresden Diceless

[finarvyn]

Personally I like going as 'diceless' as possible as a GM outside of combat.

This got me thinking. What about running a Dresden campaign using something like the Amber Diceless RPG?

Four main attributes: Psyche (mental combat), Strength (athletic actions), Warfare (weapons combat), and Endurance (how long you can last).

Spellcasting ability costs character points to buy (similar to buying Power Words, Sorcery, and Conjuration, but maybe only one "Magic" stat to represent training).

I notice in the books sometimes that Harry will compare notes with other Wizards, perhaps finding that they are better at certain types of spells while he is better with others. This could be simulated by combining Psyche (power) with Magic (training) to get some sort of spellcasting points which could be divided among magic "schools" or spell groups.
* Offensive (player picks special effect of fire, ice, lightning, water, whatever)
* Shield (player picks special effects)
* Telekinesis (moving and pushing stuff)
* Sensory (ESP, Sight, and so on)
* others I've missed?

The rules would be similar to ADRP, with each magical "school" acting a lot like an ADRP attribute. For example, a combat could be one wizard's lightning blast versus another wizard's shield and if one is stronger he is victorious, but using Endurance to resolve similar power levels.

Anyone done anything like this?

[Rel Fexive]

It's an interesting idea.

Is there anything the ADRPG can't do?

[finarvyn]

Well, I think that ADRP is great for weapons combat (particularly for melee) but I've always been a bit hesitant to get too into missile combat becasue it seems so random.

What I like about melee is that it's kind of like playing chess with move and counter-move. Magic always troubled me as well, since it seems to lack the back-and-forth the way melee does, but I'm hoping that having offensive and defensive options rather than generic spell lists may allow magical duels to play much like melee.

In most RPGs, a person casts a spell and there isn't really a counterspell. The spell just fires and everyone ducks or makes a saving throw, or whatever. What I want is a system where I can simulate the ebb and flow of magical combat with attack and counterattack of spells rather than rapiers.

I'm going to try my system out this weekend, unless someone can give me some suggestions on how to make it better before then.   

[Slife]

I actually statted out Harry Dresden for Amber DRPG

Psyche: -15
Strength: -24
Endurance: -20
Warfare: -24
Bad stuff: Too much.
A few points invested in sorcery and misc artifacts.

[finarvyn]

I actually statted out Harry Dresden for Amber DRPG

Psyche: -15
Strength: -24
Endurance: -20
Warfare: -24
Bad stuff: Too much.
A few points invested in sorcery and misc artifacts.

Made me smile.    I assume your scale was with zero representing "Amber" level.

I was thinking of running something where zero would be "human standard" level so that I wouldn't need to have all of those negative numbers. I also was looking at using the system but not all of the Amber NPCs -- the point would be to run a Dresden campaign and not simply insert Harry into an Amber campaign.

With "human" level at zero, "exceptional" (Chaos) might be at 15 and "supernatural" (Amber) more like 25, Slife's example would stat out more like this:
Psyche: 10
Strength: 1
Endurance: 5
Warfare: 1
Bad stuff: Too much.
A few points invested in sorcery and misc artifacts.

To set up characters, one would need some sort of baseline:
Vampires would have "supernatural" strength = 25.
Weres would have "supernatural" endurance = 25.
I would put most Wizards with "supernatural" psyche = 15 (so Harry's would likely be more than this).
Mercs like Kincaid might be close to "supernatural" in Warfare, maybe 10.

Pretty much all of the ADRP powers would be gone, as they are not part of the Dresdenverse, but some system for spellslinging and shape shifting would clearly have to remain. Many of the item costs (for things like Michael's sword) could remain, and the basic conflict resolution process would remain intact as well.

So ... just some quick off-the-cuff thoughts for generic critters:
* Vampire = P 10, S 25, E 15, W 0. (50 point template)
* Loup Garou = P 0, S 15, E 25, W 0. Shape Shift 35. (75 point template)
* Generic Warden = P 15, S 0, E 10, W 5. Power Words 10, Sorcery 15. (55 point template)
* Better Warden = P 15, S 0, E 10, W 5. Power Words 10, Sorcery 15, Conjuration 20. (75 point template)

Thoughts?

[Slife]

Made me smile.    I assume your scale was with zero representing "Amber" level.

I was thinking of running something where zero would be "human standard" level so that I wouldn't need to have all of those negative numbers. I also was looking at using the system but not all of the Amber NPCs -- the point would be to run a Dresden campaign and not simply insert Harry into an Amber campaign.

With "human" level at zero, "exceptional" (Chaos) might be at 15 and "supernatural" (Amber) more like 25, Slife's example would stat out more like this:
Psyche: 10
Strength: 1
Endurance: 5
Warfare: 1
Bad stuff: Too much.
A few points invested in sorcery and misc artifacts.

To set up characters, one would need some sort of baseline:
Vampires would have "supernatural" strength = 25.
Weres would have "supernatural" endurance = 25.
I would put most Wizards with "supernatural" psyche = 15 (so Harry's would likely be more than this).
Mercs like Kincaid might be close to "supernatural" in Warfare, maybe 10.

Pretty much all of the ADRP powers would be gone, as they are not part of the Dresdenverse, but some system for spellslinging and shape shifting would clearly have to remain. Many of the item costs (for things like Michael's sword) could remain, and the basic conflict resolution process would remain intact as well.

So ... just some quick off-the-cuff thoughts for generic critters:
* Vampire = P 10, S 25, E 15, W 0. (50 point template)
* Loup Garou = P 0, S 15, E 25, W 0. Shape Shift 35. (75 point template)
* Generic Warden = P 15, S 0, E 10, W 5. Power Words 10, Sorcery 15. (55 point template)
* Better Warden = P 15, S 0, E 10, W 5. Power Words 10, Sorcery 15, Conjuration 20. (75 point template)

Thoughts?

I based it off wikipedia...

Characters in Amber DRPG are represented by four attributes: Psyche, Strength, Endurance and Warfare.
    * Psyche is used for feats of willpower or magic.
    * Strength is used for feats of strength or unarmed combat.
    * Endurance is used for feats of endurance.
    * Warfare is used for armed combat, from duelling to commanding armies
The attributes run from -25 (normal human level), through -10 (normal level for a denizen of the Courts of Chaos) and 0 (normal level for an inhabitant of Amber), upwards without limit. Scores above 0 are "ranked", with the highest score being ranked 1st, the next-highest 2nd, and so on. The character with 1st rank in each attribute is considered "superior" in that attribute, being considered to be substantially better than the character with 2nd rank even if the difference in scores is small.

Anyway, the cost of artifacts in Amber is way too low.  Multiplying it by five or ten would be a good idea.

[taralon]

Not based on Amber diceless, but I thought about making something along the lines of a card based system ala Magic the gathering. 

Give each character a pool of 'Stamina points'.

Have them have instant attack and defense cards and a base cost for 'tapping' the card as well as a attack/defense multiplier.

Ie:  Fuego - Costs 1 stamina to attack.  Tapping X additional stamina increases attack power by X. 

Increasing your ability would be modeled by adding stamina pumps, or by adding a multiplier to X. 

I was thinking of allowing people to keep things out of play.  IE you start off with 4 abilities, but they are only revealed to the other players as you use them. 

If you could balance it right it should make for a fairly fast paced game without having to build more than a very basic character sheet.  IE skills, drawbacks, hitpoints.  No need to get into strength and all that. 

[finarvyn]

I based it off wikipedia...

Anyway, the cost of artifacts in Amber is way too low.  Multiplying it by five or ten would be a good idea.

I'm familiar with the ADRP rules, and certainly the Wikipedia synopsis is right on track for the way things are in Amber. My thinking was that Amber level attributes cost zero points because they are considered to be "average" for the campaign. Since humans are average in the Dresdenverse, I thought that basically adding 25 to each score would put them more in the right range so that zero would become average for the campaign. Clearly, that's why our numbers differed.

As far as artifacts go, I suspect you're right about them being too cheap but I don't know yet what is a logical scaling factor. After all, Harry has a staff, silver pendant, anti-missile bracelet, and quite a few other magical items which one might argue would "cost him points" and I'm not entirely sure how many points should go into items. In the ADRP the vast majority of points go into attributes and powers, but in a Dresden version I'm just not sure...

The werewolf belts in Fool Moon, for example, seemed pretty powerful and gave typical humans some fantastic abilities. On the other hand, Harry managed to defeat them so maybe those items weren't so hot against REAL powers.

[Bjorn74]

I'm getting ready to get a group started with the Amber system in the Dresden universe.  I'm hoping that soon I can integrate some of the Spirit of the Century elements, once I get some experience with it.  The end game I'm playing for is 1) to have a rejuvenated group to play in a fairly new and very interesting world with a lot of possibilities, 2) to have something similar to the actualized Dresden RPG whenever we expect it to arrive, and 3) to have something to run in this world that would be considered a "straight" game for Ambercon 2008.  Right now the closest I can remember in the schedule is a serial with zombies that is always a lighter-side option.  I might also try to find a way to use this in some WHEREiGO.com modules to erect in Fort Wayne, where I live.  It's all fantasy right now, though.

So, any suggested adaptations are in high demand right now. 

As far as the point distribution goes, I think my players understand that humans have H levels.  That they may start with A psyches or warfares isn't really a problem.  The diceless methods always seem to direct the plot toward figuring out a creative way to defeat a way more powerful plot device (character, magic field, all of Chaos) and leave the stats more for determining inter-character conflicts than anything else.