Elements: Why build a wizard?

[devonapple]

Actually, I think using a "Fire" evocation to put out a burning building would be perfectly legitimate.  Not sure how you would model it, but fluff-wise, you could say that you were redistributing the heat within evenly across the entire street. 

Heck, Dresden even does something like this to freeze a patch of a lake, with a very similar justification (channeling the ambient heat of the water AWAY rapidly).

[sinker]

I vaguely remember Sanctaphrax once telling me that there was a RAW reason why that's harder to do with fire than it is with water, but now I don't remember what it was, and going back though my posts seems daunting now....

[ARedthorn]

All in all, it seems like I am on the same page as everyone else... just the last thread ended up derailing pretty badly. Meh. Happens.

The reason I love DFRPG is BECAUSE it makes fluff/visual/theme/narration has a defined place in the game, instead of just being something the GM has to hand-wave. For me and mine, that makes it part of the mechanics, so the flavor matters mechanically- it has distinct reasons for existing, even if those reasons are largely left to the group to figure out (too many possibilities to lay out in Core, really, so I get it).

[Masurao]

I think one should also remember that elements are part of how the wizard views his magic. You could have wood and metal elements, as long as you can explain how it would work in your character's philosophy (and the mechanics, of course).

[polkaneverdies]

Directly manipulating literal water isn't fluff that evil hat plopped into the system.
In Turncoat during the sanctum invocation (pg 272-273 hardcover) Harry reached underground to tap the water from a stream and blocked Demonreach's fire attack with a curtain of water.

[Sanctaphrax]

You know, I probably phrased the quoted post too strongly. It seems that I seemed rather aggressive.

There are situations where an element is not useful. But they are really rare in my experience, and they may qualify as compels.

I wouldn't expect them to occur without the GM creating them intentionally.

Anyway, Evocation is still better than Channeling. I'll try to find the old "Is Channeling Useless" thread.

I'd allow mixed elements as long as nobody tried to stack specializations.

EDIT: Found the thread. It seems I misremembered the name. http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23028.0.html

[UmbraLux]

So then- how and when should/shouldn't elements matter to you in game, and why?

My take on why elements matter:  Elements are aspects.  Or at least can be.  A simple Declaration I'm a Practiced Fire Mage would get you an aspect to tag for a hotter fire spell.  It could also be a compel "Your Fire Spell Is Going to Start a Fire".  It could even be a declaration by the victim for a bonus on defense - "Fire Doesn't Hurt Demons From Below". 

It's basically similar to saying each element only does X things.  Except using aspects to grant appropriate bonuses instead of drawing arbitrary lines.  Essentially, I'm saying any magic can do anything...but some will be better at a given thing than others.  Considering declarations can be used by either victim or attacker, choosing the best element can be a four shift power swing.  Not something to sneeze at. 

[Shadow lion]

There are things the other elements can't do like stoping air flow a round an enemy to strangel them or bending light with light magic to make a vail. and using water to make a vail would also reqier more contrartastion on the humitaty or mist around you  and and now how to minipulat refraction, some gm's may make you pay more for the effect then what would be needed for something alot more basic.

[finnmckool]

I fail to see how you can do like...telekinesis with fire. Fire is good at doing things with fire. You can narrow it, remove it, lots of it, little of it, but at the end of the day you're moving heat around. Air you can do a lot with as well...remove it from most things, and they fall apart, but unless there's something to keep it from running back in again, like when you're outdoors, that's gonna be tough. You can't do ANYTHING with ANYTHING unless you get really creative, and the more intricate things get, the more you have to stretch to make your element do what you need it to do, ups the difficulty of the spell. I mean, sure, maybe you can do some sort of delicate spell where you just sorta move heat around creating some sort of warm air cushion that pushes your coffee cup to you but...wouldn't that just be really damned hard? Harry grabs his staff (heh) with wind, but could he do that with his coffee cup and not spill it?

[finnmckool]

Or to ask a different way, is there a difference, mechanically between a fist and a knife if they do the same damage?

[computerking]

Or to ask a different way, is there a difference, mechanically between a fist and a knife if they do the same damage?

Can't throw a Fist 1 zone away
can't block a weapons attack with a fist without a special stunt
harder to cause a bleeding-related consequence with a fist ("Which way did he go?" "His blood's o the ground, Let's do a quick divination ritual to find out!")
Harder to cause self-inflicted bleeding with a fist ("I need a mild consequence to help power this spell, Quick, Punch me in the nose!")

and finally,

If on "Let's Make a Deal," the host asks if anyone in the audience has a knife, your fist won't help you win that dinette set!

[UmbraLux]

I fail to see how you can do like...telekinesis with fire.

A rocket uses fire.  Hot air balloons rise and fall because of fire.  Even a jet uses heated air. 

Is it ideal?  No...hence the possibility for compels (It's on Fire!) and declarations which reduce the strength of the spell. 

Harry grabs his staff (heh) with wind, but could he do that with his coffee cup and not spill it?

Probably not and, if it mattered to the story, that would be an excellent compel!

Or to ask a different way, is there a difference, mechanically between a fist and a knife if they do the same damage?

Mechanically?  Very little difference.  Computerking points a few of the differences out. 

But FATE isn't about simulating reality.  It builds a narrative.  And there's a significant difference in the narrative...and in the consequences likely to be taken. 

[braincraft]

Fire is different from Earth in the same way Rapport is different from Intimidation. You could probably solve the problem either way, but you'll have to come up with a different plan, and the fallout might be flavored differently.

As with aspects, character abilities (assuming identical shifts) should be equivalent but not totally interchangeable.

[sinker]

Can't throw a Fist 1 zone away

I beg to differ. You can't throw your own fist. It's totally possible to throw someone else's fist. Or I suppose any fist so long as you're willing to sever it.

[NicholasQuinn]

I beg to differ. You can't throw your own fist. It's totally possible to throw someone else's fist. Or I suppose any fist so long as you're willing to sever it.

Or if you're Rayman.