Forgetting skills.

[Becq]

Technically, the RAW only allows you to switch the value of two skills (which oddly enough do not have to be within a point of each other unless one of them is at 'zero').  So, for example, you can swap Lore 1 (and Guns 0) for Guns 1 (and Lore 0), and you can even swap Lore 5 and Guns 1 for Guns 5 and Lore 1.  But you can't swap Lore 2 (and Guns 0) for Guns 2 (and Lore 0).  Using the strict interpretation of the RAW, the closest you can come to doing what you want is this, which would require a significant milestone:

Example:
You start with Guns 1 and Stealth 1, but want Lore 2 instead.  So at a significant milestone, you swap Stealth 1 for Lore 1 (using your included minor milestone benefit), then add your new skillpoint to Lore.  End result: you have Lore 2 and Guns 1 (this assumes, of course, that the new skill layout meets the requirements).

That said, I would fully support a houserule/clarification that would allow you (as a minor milestone option) to 'downgrade' one skill by a point, then either spend that point immediately to upgrade another skill by a point or bank the skill point.  This would allow you to do exactly what you wanted to do (again, assuming the skill columns result in a legal configuration).  My proposed house rule would not allow the 5/1 swap example I gave which is currently legal.  I think that this is well within the spirit of the rules, and there's a good chance that this was actually what was intended to begin with.

[zenten]

Exactly. The OP just wants to conflate several of these shifts at once rather than across a few Milestones.

Not quite.  The OP wants to change the shape of the pyramid.  There are configurations that are possible to take if you bank skill points, but impossible if you spend points at every milestone you get them.

Or the OP doesn't understand the pyramid at all.  I'm not sure.

[braincraft]

For the record, I think that what you're describing is best represented by a change of aspect rather than an overhaul of your skills.

I think I'd be inclined to be more generous about manipulating the pyramid, so long as the end result was legal. Sometimes you need to tinker with your character build after you've seen it in action because it turned out to be not quite what you wanted.

Swapping out both of those skills should take two minor milestones, however. For a major milestone, you could probably justify major rewrites - like swapping your apex skill for one you didn't have before - depending on narrative events.

[Discipol]

Not quite.  The OP wants to change the shape of the pyramid.  There are configurations that are possible to take if you bank skill points, but impossible if you spend points at every milestone you get them.

Or the OP doesn't understand the pyramid at all.  I'm not sure.

Excuse me but the pyramid is not rocket science, and in my example:
O
OOOO

to

OO
OO

Satisfies the pyramid. I understand it comfortably.
So turning it into
O
OO

then into

OO
OO

satisfies the pyramid in each step of the skillpoint injection.

I have heard from 800+ and 1500+ posters supporting downgrading skillpoints and I consider my question answered. If you would like to debate on it would be sweet.

Thank you for your interest and help Now lets go find those were-goats.

[ice4lord]

I'm the aforementioned DM ... dunno if butting in is fair to the player or not but hey ... I actually want an answer to the question as well

The problem from my POV is this: player wants to go from

Lore 5,
Guns 4, Conviction 4,
Discipline 3, Endurance 3,
Resources 2, Athletics 2, Rapport 2,
Presence 1, Stealth 1, Alertness 1, Scholarship 1, Contacts 1

to

Lore 5, Conviction 5
Guns 4, Discipline 4
Endurance 3 , Athletics 3
Resources 2 , Rapport 2
Presence 1, Scholarship 1

My response was that i see 2 problems with it :
1: He shouldn't be able to do it in one milestone.
2: I see no way to do it at all within the rules. - thus the birth of this thread.


IMO the question is this: can one switch from one shape of the pyramid to another if he has been investing skill points at every milestone (I think it's possible by saving the points but that hasn't happened here).

[Discipol]

(I think it's possible by saving the points but that hasn't happened here).

Saving refresh points eventually gives you fate points however saving skillpoint points does not offer compensation. Thus, as a player I would think to use the max of my stats, even if they are +1, dunno how many times a 1 point was the difference between taking a bullet to the face and not taking it.

[braincraft]

O
OOOO

to

OO
OO

To nitpick, that would be

O
OOO

to

OO
OO

Your example would end up as

OO
OOO

My response was that i see 2 problems with it :
1: He shouldn't be able to do it in one milestone.
2: I see no way to do it at all within the rules. - thus the birth of this thread.

I absolutely agree that a single minor milestone should not be enough to change all that. A major milestone, sure; that's supposed to be a big deal.

And again, even though the rules don't provide specifically for this sort of rearrangement, I'd be generous about letting small rules violations slide; especially if it supports the narrative more strongly.

If it's one of the first few sessions, or this player is new to the game or RPGs in general, I'd let him revamp his character, since he obviously changed his mind about what he wanted. Otherwise, I'd hesitate to set a precedent of being extremely cavalier about changing up character builds; at least force him to work gradually towards it until his next major milestone.

But once again, I feel that a change of aspect could easily account for what he's aiming at.

[UmbraLux]

IMO the question is this: can one switch from one shape of the pyramid to another if he has been investing skill points at every milestone (I think it's possible by saving the points but that hasn't happened here).

Recommendation - go with the spirit of the rules and allow moving one skill up and one skill down each milestone.  Let him bank unused points between milestones and, eventually, he'll get the change he wants.

May not follow the letter of the rules but it sticks to the spirit of allowing gradual change to occur.

[ways and means]

I let people forget as many skills as the want (move from 1-0) at a milestone, but don't let them buy up the new skills until a significant milestone.

[Masurao]

My response was that i see 2 problems with it :
1: He shouldn't be able to do it in one milestone.
2: I see no way to do it at all within the rules. - thus the birth of this thread.


IMO the question is this: can one switch from one shape of the pyramid to another if he has been investing skill points at every milestone (I think it's possible by saving the points but that hasn't happened here).

I can see why you are hesitant and agree with some others that you shouldn't just allows this change to happen 'overnight', certainly not in one minor milestone. This is a total revamp of the character and even if done at a major milestone, I might ask/require the player to sacrifice something else he might have also gained from that milestone. You are beig lenient, whether or not you'd follow the spirit of the rules for allowing this.

I, of course, believe the player must still find his character fun to play, but I also believe that this could've been foreseen. Either you dedicate to two skills at a higher level, at the cost of versatile lower levels, or you spread out the pyramids base more, become something of a 'jack-of-all-trades', it's not that difficult to grasp. Don't ask me why, but somehow this grinds my gears and I wouldn't allow it for a more experienced player/seasoned character.

[Tsunami]

I'm the aforementioned DM ... dunno if butting in is fair to the player or not but hey ... I actually want an answer to the question as well

The problem from my POV is this: player wants to go from

Lore 5,
Guns 4, Conviction 4,
Discipline 3, Endurance 3,
Resources 2, Athletics 2, Rapport 2,
Presence 1, Stealth 1, Alertness 1, Scholarship 1, Contacts 1

to

Lore 5, Conviction 5
Guns 4, Discipline 4
Endurance 3 , Athletics 3
Resources 2 , Rapport 2
Presence 1, Scholarship 1

My response was that i see 2 problems with it :
1: He shouldn't be able to do it in one milestone.
2: I see no way to do it at all within the rules. - thus the birth of this thread.


IMO the question is this: can one switch from one shape of the pyramid to another if he has been investing skill points at every milestone (I think it's possible by saving the points but that hasn't happened here).

Ok, lets try to take that apart.
Provided that one allows Cashing in a level 1 skill as a Minor Milestone benefit.

What is he doing.

Selling Contacts
Selling Stealth

That's two minor milestones right there.

At this point he has two skillpoints saved, and still a valid pyramid.

Now he needs a Significant Milestone

Using the Minor Milestone Benefit to: Sell Alertness for another skillpoint... or maybe better to use the Skill point he gets anyways... but thats up to him.

This is the point where he can buy up the three skills he want's to raise, and if he sold Alertness he needs to do that, because he would otherwise no longer have a valid pyramid.

Conviction from 4 to 5
Discipline from 3 to 4 to fill the gap
Athletics from 2 to 3 to fill the gap

Increasing the skills is part of the significant milestone Benefit.

The result is a valid pyramid. and 1 skill point in the bank.
Needing 2 Minors and 1 Significant to get to.

That is if you allow cashing in, which i personally wouldn't. I can't tell you exactly why i wouldn't... it just doesn't feel right.

Usually you'd need 3 Significants to get there. (you would then of course still have the three level 1 skill, and no skill point in the bank. )

[Richard_Chilton]

Ok, lets try to take that apart.
Provided that one allows Cashing in a level 1 skill as a Minor Milestone benefit.

....

That is if you allow cashing in, which i personally wouldn't. I can't tell you exactly why i wouldn't... it just doesn't feel right.

I agree that it doesn't feel right.  And the OP's GM feels the same way - which is the problem the OP is facing.  A better subject line might have been "Reshaping the skill pyramid after character creation".

The RAW doesn't allow for this, and going from a jack of all (or at least some) trades to a specialist... that's a drastic change to the character.

Richard

[Discipol]

Well there was recently a major milestone, and this Sunday a minor one.
I would be fine selling those two points then and waiting for the next.

Alas, the GM made up his mind and no-ed it.

[Becq]

Increasing the skills is part of the significant milestone Benefit.

I think I look at it a bit differently:
* A minor allows you to change your skill pool (increase a skill at the cost of an existing skill).
* A significant milestone allows you to increase your skill pool (increase a skill without taking away from an existing skill), and also perform a minor benefit (possibly including an additional change to your skill pool).

Given that, I think it's within the spirit of the rules to perform the change the player wanted in one minor plus one significant milestone, as follows:

Start:
Lore 5,
Guns 4, Conviction 4,
Discipline 3, Endurance 3,
Resources 2, Rapport 2, Athletics 2,
Presence 1, Scholarship 1, Stealth 1, Alertness 1, Contacts 1

Minor Milestone
(use the minor benefit to swap a point of Contacts for a (banked) point designated for use with Athletics):
Lore 5,
Guns 4, Conviction 4,
Discipline 3, Endurance 3,
Resources 2, Rapport 2, Athletics 2(3),
Presence 1, Scholarship 1, Stealth 1, Alertness 1

Note: At this point, actually increasing Athletics to 3 isn't legal, so it counts as Athletics 2 for now (the phantom third point is 'in the bank').

Significant Milestone
(use the 'bonus' minor benefit to swap a point of Stealth for a (banked) point designated for use with Discipline):
Lore 5,
Guns 4, Conviction 4,
Discipline 3(4), Endurance 3,
Resources 2, Rapport 2, Athletics 2(3),
Presence 1, Scholarship 1, Alertness 1


(apply the significant benefit to gain a (banked) skill point, designated for use with Conviction):
Lore 5,
Guns 4, Conviction 4(5),
Discipline 3(4), Endurance 3,
Resources 2, Rapport 2, Athletics 2(3),
Presence 1, Scholarship 1, Alertness 1

Note: At this point, the three banked skill points can take effect while keeping the skill columns legal:
Lore 5, Conviction 5,
Guns 4, Discipline 4,
Endurance 3,  Athletics 3,
Resources 2, Rapport 2,
Presence 1, Scholarship 1, Alertness 1

This could also be done with three minor milestones (which would require trading in the Alertness 1 to provide the third skill point), or potentially during a major milestone (which allows for skill reconfiguration if appropriate).

I think this is a fair way of applying the rules within the spirit of the rules.  You are only increasing skills by a single point per benefit.  Note that the skill points aren't really 'banked' in the sense of becoming unallocated; instead they are shifted immediately to their new skill, though you are delaying the use of those skills until they legally fit into your skill columns.

But, as always, play it the way that makes the most sense to you at your table.

[Discipol]

the point is the skills aren't banked and the text in the book is missing, or was purposely not included to handling selling of the skillpoints.