Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**

[jen4k2]

Jim could have everyone find out between books, but there should be all sorts of very interesting reactions (like the White Council who probably have made him somewhat hero-ish for wiping out the Reds...)

AAAAHH! I never considered this. Framing him as a hero postmortem and him coming back... That could be really interesting. Poor Arthur Langtry.

[khatre]

I had a thought about the Harry/Molly relationship a couple days after finishing Ghost story and if anyone else has mentioned it i can't seem to find it. so here goes ..

When Uriel gives Harry the dime tour with all of the people Harry loves he can clearly see that Molly would be OK. But the question remains... WHY will she be OK?
I came up with two possible reasons why she was in a much better place than she was prior to Ghost Story.

1) Harry was late and was not all that material when he did it but he finally managed to Show Up. After her father nearly died at Demonsreach she felt kind of cut off and defenseless. Her father, the Indestructable Fist of God, was laid low just as she was getting in the habit of putting her own life in serious danger. The loss of that safety net made her feel very vulnerable. That vulnerable feeling only went away when Harry promised that if she ever needed him he would find a way to Show Up. When push came to shove and Molly was neck deep in her battle with corpstaker he managed to Show Up. All he could give her were a few words and an idea. Those words and the idea saved her life and ended corpstaker true but they are less important than the fact that he had promised to BE THERE when she needed him. She needed him and he was THERE. Come hell or high water he was NOT going to leave here side.

2) Harry believed in her like no one else in here life. Her family believed in her but they can not see the whole picture. Family (especially a family as loving as the carpenters) would never be able to see here darker thoughts and some of the dark paths they would lead her down. Harry shared a soulgaze with her and could see her potential dark path as clearly as day and he still believed in her. He had no illusions. He clearly saw that she could take the laft hand path as easily as the right but he CHOSE to belive that she would take the right path. Time after time he placed his life in her hands and trusted in her ability to help save the day. Simply put he Believed in Her.
In the months before Ghost Story life had not been all that kind to her. She learned how to make tough decisions trying to keep people safe. Every day she could feel herself pulling back tward that dark path that Harry saw in her soulgaze. In the battle with corpstaker he did more than just put his life in her hands he put his eternal soul in her hands. Pain and suffering can leave an indelible mark on someone but Faith, Trust and Love can leave a mark that is just as strong and just as permanent.
His Faith in her helped her believe in herself again. Not just her magic abilities but her ability to do the right thing. No matter how bad things got, no matter what happened, he would ALWAYS Belive in Her.

Molly does not quite see Harry as the night in shining armor (or duster) but thats all to the good. Maby she will accept him as he is instead of who she wants him to be.
Harry does not see Molly as a little girl anymore (or even just his apprentice). He has to see her as a grown woman making her own choices and living with the consequences of those choices.
Both changes were necessary if they were ever going to have an adult relationship.



Sooooo ... do i have any points right? or have i just been reading too much fanfiction recently?

[biblio_chica]

New here, but I've enjoyed reading all these posts. I have to say about the Molly/Harry relationship though, I don't think what he did was so unforgivable.

She had to go through this transformation, and in a way he had to put her through it. That's what teachers do. She has to experience things to grow, and she has to make choices and be put in difficult situations to show what she is really made of otherwise she never gains wisdom, nor will she ever be redeemed- just like Harry. It's all very much the same Garden of Eden theme - if you never know, you can't choose, if you can't choose, you are merely a puppet. JB seems very big on Free Will, and Free Will does not mean without cost. Knowledge and wisdom come from a loss of innocence. This is Molly growing up and doing it for herself.

Although, for those who seem to think Harry and Molly are going to get together, I have to say eww. Maybe it's because I am teacher, but that relationship has too much of a power/experience differential. They can never really be equals, even if they are peers. Just like his relationship with EB. The inequality of a relationship like that would be ... well, icky. How could he ever justify that to Michael? If she had been older - as in like an adult when he met her, maybe... the first time we see her she is like 14, and he's known her for years. Harry needs a woman who has her own experience and can challenge him on an equal footing. Unfortunately, he has no equal right now, not in power or experience, except maybe for Lucio and that didn't work out.

Anyway, I love how the characters and relationships evolve, as well as the philosophical underpinnings which get more nuanced and thoughtful with each new book. Looking forward to seeing what he does next!

[khatre]

Lucio is something like 250 years older than Harry (that kinda makes the 15 year difference between harry and Molly kinda negligible) and the only thing that stoped it from working was the whole mind manipulation thing. Lucio could not get past it. I am not saying that its unjustified, someone toying with your brain would be alot to just get over. Yet something real for both of them could have come out of it if she had managed it.

As for Harry and Molly getting together ... I do not see it happening. BUT .. Molly has been in love with Harry for a VERRY long time. That kind of love and trust is kinda rare and i would hate to see her heart broken...

Harry and female relationships ...
Emilly ... That boat sailed a long time ago. They are definatly friends ONLY.
Susan ... Hiding their child (and being dead) killed that one.
Lucio ... Can't see the forest for the trees .. or the mind control (thats been totally cleaned up ...).
Lash ... Heeee .... Ewwww! They share the same BRAIN, now thats iky.
Murph ... They have locked each other into their own respective "Friend closets" for so many years now that it would take an act of god to clear out the cobwebs. That is not even considering the fall out when she finds out he arranged his own death (using her boyfirend to do it). Vanilla human and wizzard lifespans make a long term relationship all but impossible. so i dont see that happening either.
Barring the intorduction of a whole new female character ...
Molly is the only person who loves him that he feels any kind of connection and might be able to live a life on a Wizzard Scale.
There are other women but ... Laura? Lea? MAB? I wouldnt wish them on Nick!
He lives his life to protect others. It seems sad that he has to live it Alone. He has friends true but its been 5 maby 6 years since he has had someone warm to cuddle up to on a cold night and we all know how Susan ended. A little bit of happyness is not too much to ask for. Without that kind of connection all he is left with is Dying Alone. Loved but still Alone.

[TheCuriousFan]

Emilly ... That boat sailed a long time ago. They are definatly friends ONLY.

I don't think there's a major character named emily in this series.

Lash ... Heeee .... Ewwww! They share the same BRAIN, now thats iky.

You say icky, I say potentially kinky considering the whole "she can make you feel anything or look like anyone" angle.

Laura?

Its Lara, and all he needs is to learn Lea's "put the Hunger to sleep" spell to avoid being eaten.

Lea?

Lea is rather unlikely, she does appear to care for him in her own way though.

MAB?

They're already effectively married, add a few scenes of them talking to each other and learning to understand each other (and possibly have Harry give her a nickname, see the "Harry has naming powers" theory) and they may become shipable.

[Arjan]

I don't think there's a major character named emily in this series.

Elaine most probably. And that train....

You say icky, I say potentially kinky considering the whole "she can make you feel anything or look like anyone" angle.

Its Lara, and all he needs is to learn Lea's "put the Hunger to sleep" spell to avoid being
eaten.

Without the hunger the attraction will be less as well. And lust is the only thing she has to offer. Sure she is intelligent and has a sense of humor but not enough to compensate for the rest of her character.

Lea is rather unlikely, she does appear to care for him in her own way though.

His godmother. That is icky. 

They're already effectively married, add a few scenes of them talking to each other and learning to understand each other (and possibly have Harry give her a nickname, see the
"Harry has naming powers" theory) and they may become shipable.

Mab? They are already shipped. People who want to ship anybody else must first unhip her.

[khatre]

I ment Elaine, sorry bout the brain fart 
 

[biblio_chica]

OK, Luccio is much older - but they never had a teacher/student relationship, so age can be something mitigated by the fact that Harry has had a great deal of experience. It's not the age thing - it's the relative power in the relationship to one another (not magical power). That's what is creepy about the whole Molly/Harry idea. I know the whole falling in love with the teacher thing seems like a great fantasy, but it becomes a thing where the teacher has more power over the student, which is unhealthy and just ick.

I think the hero has to be alone. He doesn't get the girl or peace until he's finished his quest, and until JB finishes his quest, Harry doesn't get the girl. When he does, she has to be worth all the pain and suffering, and the only one in his life who that fits is his daughter. In the end, I don't think it will be romantic love he gets, he might just get familial love, which he craves more anyway.

A hero doesn't get someone warm to curl up with, a hero chooses the hard road of challenge, not comfort. It's sad, but that's what makes his sacrifice noble. He doesn't get the soft, comfortable relationships that can turn to complacency. He saves the world. His love is for the world, for good, for humanity. These are higher ideals and this is a far greater love. That's why we admire a hero. They sacrifice so others don't have to. Their sacrifices make other people's comfort possible.

[mdodd]

OK, Luccio is much older - but they never had a teacher/student relationship, so age can be something mitigated by the fact that Harry has had a great deal of experience. It's not the age thing - it's the relative power in the relationship to one another (not magical power). That's what is creepy about the whole Molly/Harry idea. I know the whole falling in love with the teacher thing seems like a great fantasy, but it becomes a thing where the teacher has more power over the student, which is unhealthy and just ick.

I think the hero has to be alone. He doesn't get the girl or peace until he's finished his quest, and until JB finishes his quest, Harry doesn't get the girl. When he does, she has to be worth all the pain and suffering, and the only one in his life who that fits is his daughter. In the end, I don't think it will be romantic love he gets, he might just get familial love, which he craves more anyway.

A hero doesn't get someone warm to curl up with, a hero chooses the hard road of challenge, not comfort. It's sad, but that's what makes his sacrifice noble. He doesn't get the soft, comfortable relationships that can turn to complacency. He saves the world. His love is for the world, for good, for humanity. These are higher ideals and this is a far greater love. That's why we admire a hero. They sacrifice so others don't have to. Their sacrifices make other people's comfort possible.

Agreed, Sam didn't get Rosie Cotton until after the Big Bang.

[thepiratetheyfear]

Im new just started reading some of these post.Am I the only one that thinks kemmler is behind the black council. I just cant figure out whos body he jump into after Harry killed him in Justin Demourns body.and yes i dont think Kemmler was actually Kemmler either.I think he was morgana but thats beside the point

[TheCuriousFan]

Im new just started reading some of these post.Am I the only one that thinks kemmler is behind the black council. I just cant figure out whos body he jump into after Harry killed him in Justin Demourns body.and yes i dont think Kemmler was actually Kemmler either.I think he was morgana but thats beside the point

What?

Kemmler is confirmed to be dead and Justin is way too weak to be Kemmler.

And who do you mean by Morgana?

[thepiratetheyfear]

i forget wich book its in but they talk about justin being one of the wardens at kemmlers final stand. its also mentioned that he changed after. mabe harry didnt kill him but he took the bob and im sure justin was kemler triing to rebuild his army. by morgana i ment morgana lafae theres and kemler keeps getting brought up over and over hes not dead. if you go over old aurthurian is that the right word legends morgana was a necromancer she brought mordred back. or i could just be crazy

[TheCuriousFan]

its also mentioned that he changed after.

Won't believe this until I see a source.

mabe harry didnt kill him

They found his charred corpse, he's dead. WoJ backs this up.

by morgana i ment morgana lafae theres and kemler keeps getting brought up over and over hes not dead. if you go over old aurthurian is that the right word legends morgana was a necromancer she brought mordred back. or i could just be crazy

Your argument is:

Morngana was a Nercomancer.

Kemmler was a Necromancer.

Therefore, Morgana is Kemmler.

I'm going to need more proof than that before I believe this theory.

[thepiratetheyfear]

theres all these parallel lines drawn between harry and merlin and harry dosnt realy have a nemesis yet.He has enemies but not an actual nemesis.Jim is too much of a comic book fan to not give harry an actual nemesis an arch villain.even if kemmler isnt morgana harry himself said he thought caprio corpus took her whole game plan from her master we havnt seen the last of kemmler and im pretty sure he was demourn but like i said i could be crazy.

[thepiratetheyfear]

oh and in some of the old stories and legends morgana`s the one who kills merlin and he son mordred kills aurthur just my ideas