Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**

[kimluvs2read]

Was there ever a real chance of a Harry/Molly romance?  Even leaving apart the age difference, the sheer inappropriateness of a romance between a wizard and his apprentice, and the Doom of Damocles, you'd think even Harry would know better than to risk being torn limb from limb by the only dark power that even he fears.   I refer, of course, to Molly's mother, Charity.  And Michael would let her do it.

I haven't finished the entire thread so someone else may have said this already.

Molly's family will die long before she does, her and Harry may live up to 400 or 500 years, that is long time to get over her being younger or the apprentice issue.

[kristaleyes]

finished reading ghost story, and i thought it was awesome. especially that badass little speech harry made to mab.

haven't read all the comments yet, but there are those saying that harry had himself killed because he was in despair, etc. what i think is, yeah, he was in despair and he thought that the only way to save his daughter back in changes was to take up the mantle of the winter knight. however, when he  made the decision to get kincaid to kill him, i don't think he made that decision out of desperation. i think he thought it was the most pragmatic and most practical way to make sure that he wouldn't belong to mab completely. or it was his way of cheating mab out of her new winter knight.

[john4200]

i think he thought it was the most pragmatic and most practical way to make sure that he wouldn't belong to mab completely. or it was his way of cheating mab out of her new winter knight.

Except that Harry could not have been in his right mind when he decided that. Since no mention was made of Molly changing anything except Harry's memory of the conversation with Molly and the call to Kincaid, I assume Molly did not try any deeper tampering. Therefore, when Harry told Mab that he would not commit suicide, he really believed that he would not, or Mab would have known. And Harry would have been operating normally when telling that to Mab, only missing the memory about committing suicide. So, if Harry in his right mind would contemplate killing himself to escape being the Winter Knight, Mab would have seen it in his mind.

Hmmm, I am not sure if I am explaining this well. My point is basically that Molly apparently did very little to Harry's mind -- she only erased a memory. So when Harry told Mab he wanted to be the Winter Knight, Harry was basically operating in his normal mental capacity. And Mab seemed to believe Harry that he would not commit suicide. So, that means that Harry ordinarily would not even contemplate suicide to escape from Mab.

The whole situation is rather odd. Unless Molly did a lot more to Harry's mind than just erasing a few minutes of memories.

[kristaleyes]

that's food for thought there, john4200.

but the way i understood changes is that harry did think through all the possible options he had and becoming the winter knight was the best choice in terms of avoiding going "evil" eventually. i think he must have believed that being the winter knight would give him the most leeway to rebel in the future (since he had already seen lloyd slate do basically the same thing before when the guy sided with aurora). so he must have also thought that even if mab figured out he tried to cheat her by dying and she does something to keep him alive, then he still wouldn't be completely under her power or become completely corrupted.

contrast that if, for example, he had chosen to take up a coin instead. his chances of losing himself were greater if he had opted to go with the fallen. even though, yes, a human host can decide to give up the coin, being the host of a fallen angel seems to be really corrupting. even when it was just lash in his head, other people noticed little changes about him, like he was angrier than normal. and she was just a shadow.

[john4200]

No, I was talking about the decision to suicide, not the decision to become the Winter Knight. If Harry, in a normal frame of mind, would have thought killing himself was a good way to escape from Mab, then Mab should have read that in his mind. Also, if Harry would think about suicide in a normal frame of mind, then why did he NOT try to arrange his death (after he forgot about arranging it) again?

I think it is clear that a right-minded Harry would not contemplate suicide to escape Mab. Or if he were to do it, he would do it a lot smarter. Like tell Kincaid,

"Don't mention this to Murphy or Ivy (or me), but if sometime in the indefinite future, in the judgment of Murphy or Ivy, I have become irredeemably evil as the Winter Knight, then I want to call in the favor you owe me. If that happens, I want you to kill me. I am going to have the memory of this conversation erased, so I will not know it is coming."

Of course, if Harry later tried to call in the favor from Kincaid for something else, that would be a funny conversation.

[kristaleyes]

oh, i see. sorry for going off on a tangent there.

and, yeah, you've got a good point. though i'm also inclined to think that mab, who's been around for ages, would probably have considered the possibility that harry would try something to get out of their agreement. and she might have been watching out for a trick from him. so as soon as he got shot and fell "into cold and darkness—and they are my domain", as she herself said, then she immediately moved to rescue his body. plus, she didn't really seem surprised that he did what he did to try to escape from her.

[john4200]

though i'm also inclined to think that mab, who's been around for ages, would probably have considered the possibility that harry would try something to get out of their agreement.

We do not seem to be communicating very well.

Of course Mab was alert to the possibility of a trick from Harry. That is why Harry had Molly erase his memory of ordering the hit on himself, because otherwise Mab would have seen it in Harry's mind when he accepted the Winter Knight position. If Mab knew that Harry was going to kill himself, she would probably either not accept him as Winter Knight, or would thwart the suicide attempt. Since Mab did accept him, and did not know about the shooting until afterwards, it is clear that Molly successfully hid the memory from Mab. But that means that Harry would not have ordinarily though of killing himself, since he did not try it again once he was no longer in despair, and Mab did not see any specific issues in Harry's mind.

[itari]

But that means that Harry would not have ordinarily though of killing himself, since he did not try it again once he was no longer in despair, and Mab did not see any specific issues in Harry's mind.

He threatened Lea with suicide to get out of the deal with her in GP, didn't he? Mab knew about it, since she bought Harry's debt later.

[Powderkegger]

I keep wondering about what Harry's standing with the Council is going to be when he returns. He was officially dead for months, his apprentice is an outlaw (though she's apparently not a top priority for the Wardens) and there's no way the Council doesn't/won't know about the Winter Knight gig. Harry Dresden- Outlaw Sorceror?

[john4200]

He threatened Lea with suicide to get out of the deal with her in GP, didn't he? Mab knew about it, since she bought Harry's debt later.

Yup, and she asked him about it in Changes, and he said he would not do it again, and Mab believed him.

Mab: "But you have proven willing to destroy yourself in the past. You won your last confrontation with my handmaiden in just such a fashion, by partaking of the death angel. What prevents you from taking a similar action to cheat me of my prize?"

Harry: "My word. I know I can't bluff you. I won't suicide. I'm here to deal in good faith."

[Glorificus]

I keep wondering about what Harry's standing with the Council is going to be when he returns. He was officially dead for months, his apprentice is an outlaw (though she's apparently not a top priority for the Wardens) and there's no way the Council doesn't/won't know about the Winter Knight gig. Harry Dresden- Outlaw Sorceror?

I'm really looking forward to this too. Although if he goes to Edinburgh he should borrow Mouse from Butters to keep Mai off his back. Eb may be proud, Carlos may be annoyed Harry left Carlos to cover his territory - The Merlin will want to decapitate Harry and Mollie.

Quite a party!!

[Warden John Marcone]

The Merlin will want to decapitate Harry and Mollie.

He wouldn't dare.  The Merlin may be many things, but he ain't stupid and the Council still needs the Ways through Winter.  The Ramps may be gone, but everybody else has decided to take their place and the Council's at war again (can't remember who said it, my bro's got my copy at the moment).  The Council doesn't dare do anything to jeopardize their access to the Ways.

[The Guardian]

Kinkaid is a master assassin; so, WHY didn't he shoot Harry in the head?

[Warden John Marcone]

Kinkaid is a master assassin; so, WHY didn't he shoot Harry in the head?

It's in the script!

Actually, Kincaid's a professional assassin, and unless the shot's dead-certain (like an unchanging fall trajectory) professionals are trained to go for the body shot.  There was too much chance Harry would have moved his head or stepped one way or another at JUST the wrong instant.  Safer to go for the body shot.

My 2˘

[xakko]

He wouldn't dare.  The Merlin may be many things, but he ain't stupid and the Council still needs the Ways through Winter.  The Ramps may be gone, but everybody else has decided to take their place and the Council's at war again (can't remember who said it, my bro's got my copy at the moment).  The Council doesn't dare do anything to jeopardize their access to the Ways.

the Merlin might not actively seek the death of Molly and Harry for political reasons, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't want them dead.

so, to throw a monkey wrench into the discussion - I just finished my re-read of White Night, and the whole thing with Molly in the book is that she thought of her power as the first and best solution to any situation.  In Ghost Story, it really looks like her first instinct to the power vacuum was to use her power, often to cause the death of others.  I don't know that she had any options, though, and she seemed to use illusions and not mind control.  But she definitely used her power to dance along the edges of the first law, and there would seem to be a reckoning for that.