Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**

[rapier1642]

Is it too obvious to presume the parasite was Lash?  As we learned from White Night the areas of his brain in which she was stored were destroyed, but given that they were only small bits all over the place and that wizard cells create identical copies when healing she could have returned by now and be tweaking strings out of shot.  Furthermore as a parasite it is within her best interests to keep her host alive.

That was my initial thought as well. The parasite being Lash

[banethorn]

I loved this book,but I have some thoughts...don't we always!
Plus Side:
* Loved the way Molly's character was brought to life. What a great line; "So. You've finally been inside me. I feel like I should be offering you a cigarette." That was so cool. It showed she was all grown up
Also, that she'd aquired Harry's smart mouth. The entire Star Trek sequence that took place in her mind was another one of my favorites.
* Then there was Butters and Bob. At first, it bothered me that Butters had aquired Bob; but by the end of the book I felt he had earned his roll as caretaker. I always liked the character, but now even more so.
* Mortimer got some great characterization. For the first time I really liked (respected) him. Before "Ghost Story" he was just a minor bleep on the radar as far as I was concerned.  Nothing to write home about.
* Another character I think might prove interesting is Fitz. Does his unusual coloring and the fact that "his eyes were an odd shade of brown, so light as to be nearly golden." mean anything. I like this character, already.
Things That Bother Me (Of course, I need to find 'some' fault no matter how much I like the series.
* What Dresden asked of Molly. I'm sorry, but I totally understand why he did it. He was being mentally being messed with by some big time "former angel" at the time. Also, it was his daughter he was trying to protect. He was  trying to save the world from himself as the Winter Knight, as well, Still, he needs to make things as right as he can, or he won't be our Harry.
* Then,  there's what he's done with asking Kincaid of all people to do the dirty deed. Could he have contacted Marcone for a favor? Maybe not, but if Karrin finds out I can't imagine her taking it well. I think she is likely to be furious at 'both' Dresden and Kincaid.
+ Then there's poor Thomas. Hasn't this poor guy been through enough? How's he going to react to the fact that Dresden left it up to Molly to tell him, or not, Then, Molly left him wallowing in guilt, thinking that it was somehow partly his fault; rational or not. Let's face it, Thomas was still recovering from the worst form of torture by the Skinwalker.
 Poor guy, first, his mother left him with a father she knew would kill him as soon as he reached maturity. I believe she was on the run for about five years (I may be wrong on this point,) but I believe Thomas was nine or ten when Harry was born. Knowing she might be caught/killed; she, at least, had already taken steps to ensure that Harry had a Fairy Godmother to look out for him.In addition, Harry was to recieve the legacy of her knowledge of the 'Paths'.
 Then, there's Ebenezar mcCoy. As far as I can tell, he has never shown the slightest interest in his 'other' grandson. Of course, maybe he ignores Thomas because he hated his father.
 Add to this the fact that Harry "never once thought about Thomas, not once since returning to Chicago" because Harry would feel shame about not trusting him. I haven't got a problem with the fact that he didn't tell Thomas. Lets face it, Thomas would have tried to stop it; but come on. I really had a hard time with the fact that Harry would deliberately forget about his brother.
  Then we get a little bit of Thomas, near the end of the book, and it's good. However, I don't understand why he will be able to make love to Justine just because she's going to make love to someone else, first? Why wouldn't they have done this long before? Maybe I'm just missing something. I'm not the brightest bulb on the block.:-D. Anyway, I was sort of hoping that Thomas would offer to be the Next Summer Knight in return for being able to make love to Justine.
     Well, what's important is that Harry's back and in his body again.  I guess I'll have to settle for remaining ignorant about some things.
 Anyway, I really enjoyed the book. Jim Butcher is one of my favorite authors. I can't wait a whole year for the next book! :-(  Help!

[Kilroy]

Demonreach:

MAB GAVE YOU BREATH.
HERE (meaning I) PROVIDED NOURISHMENT.
THE PARASITE MAINTAINED THE FLOW OF BLOOD

If the parasite had something to do with anything on the island he would not have broke of the statement into 3 lines. He see's himself as the location, anything on the island might be seen as a parasite to "here" but not to Harry. But really in my opinion to call a Tree on "Here" a parasite would be to call the hair on your head one, People trying to live on the island is another thing... and from the abandoned town we can see how "Here" deals with parasites. So I really have no clue what it could be at this point. I dont think it is Lash tho... if and thats a big IF there were anything left of her how would that keep his heart pumping?

It could be nothing really and now Jim is reading the forums doing your standard evil laugh.

[Kilroy]

Things That Bother Me (Of course, I need to find 'some' fault no matter how much I like the series.

* Then,  there's what he's done with asking Kincaid of all people to do the dirty deed. Could he have contacted Marcone for a favor? Maybe not, but if Karrin finds out I can't imagine her taking it well. I think she is likely to be furious at 'both' Dresden and Kincaid.

+ Then there's poor Thomas. Hasn't this poor guy been through enough? How's he going to react to the fact that Dresden left it up to Molly to tell him, or not, Then, Molly left him wallowing in guilt, thinking that it was somehow partly his fault; rational or not. Let's face it, Thomas was still recovering from the worst form of torture by the Skinwalker.
 Poor guy, first, his mother left him with a father she knew would kill him as soon as he reached maturity. I believe she was on the run for about five years (I may be wrong on this point,) but I believe Thomas was nine or ten when Harry was born. Knowing she might be caught/killed; she, at least, had already taken steps to ensure that Harry had a Fairy Godmother to look out for him.In addition, Harry was to recieve the legacy of her knowledge of the 'Paths'.
 Then, there's Ebenezar mcCoy. As far as I can tell, he has never shown the slightest interest in his 'other' grandson. Of course, maybe he ignores Thomas because he hated his father.
 Add to this the fact that Harry "never once thought about Thomas, not once since returning to Chicago" because Harry would feel shame about not trusting him. I haven't got a problem with the fact that he didn't tell Thomas. Lets face it, Thomas would have tried to stop it; but come on. I really had a hard time with the fact that Harry would deliberately forget about his brother.
  Then we get a little bit of Thomas, near the end of the book, and it's good. However, I don't understand why he will be able to make love to Justine just because she's going to make love to someone else, first? Why wouldn't they have done this long before? Maybe I'm just missing something. I'm not the brightest bulb on the block.:-D. Anyway, I was sort of hoping that Thomas would offer to be the Next Summer Knight in return for being able to make love to Justine.
     Well, what's important is that Harry's back and in his body again.  I guess I'll have to settle for remaining ignorant about some things.
 Anyway, I really enjoyed the book. Jim Butcher is one of my favorite authors. I can't wait a whole year for the next book! :-(  Help!

He asked Kincaid cause he knew it would be clean. He respects the man and knew that if he asked him to do it he would. Not only would it be a clean and quick death but he would not have to worry about the police tracking anyone down. He would never goto Marcone for something like this.

Thomas had a hard life starting up yes but she knew Harry would be a Wizard, I think thats why she made the deal with Lea for him. More things can hurt a young wizard then a young white vamp IE Justin. As well no one knows of the relationship outside a choice few, I dont thing Eb even knows. Hell we did not even learn he was Gram Pa Eb till the end of the last book.

Harry also said there was a reason he never thought of his brother. Subconsciously he knew if he did he would feel the instant shame of not telling him about what he was going to do. So his mind did all it could not to think about him.

You got me the on the whole Justine thing tho.... I think Jim cheated on that one just to give Thomas a booty call.

As for the Knight thing I am guessing you mean Winter Knight as Fix is currently in the role of Summer. While I could see him taking the offer Mab is a little crazy over Dresden... I mean look at what shit did to herself in order to stay in Chicago till May. I still think this shows even more proof that she has been infected or altered in some way to show a character change this big.

[lewis]

The problem with saying one of the Denerians is responsible for whispering to Dresden is the simple fact nothing they do qualifies as cheating. They exist in balance with the Knights and are free to maim, deceive, kill, and subvert to their black heart's content. Another reason to exclude the Denerians is because something so subtle would not really be practical at that moment and time for them. If they wanted him dead and managed to get that close to him, then why waste the breath? Just bash his head in and be done with it. As for Lash specifically, assuming that she even survived giving up her 'life' for Dresen, what would she gain by getting Dresden to kill himself? The entire purpose of the Shadow of Lasciel is to subvert Dresden so he will take up the coin; killing him would be quite counterproductive.

The truth is that Uriel's care to avoid saying the Fallen's name makes it clear who he is talking about. Think about how in Small Favors, Mab takes great care to refer to the archangels by titles and not by names, even cautioning Dresden about saying Uriel's name. How in Changes, the Erlking warned Dresden about the consequences about saying Mab's name a third time. To put all that it into context, the idiom "speak of the Devil" is more than just a turn of phrase in the Dresdenverse, and quite literal in this moment and time. It was the Prince of Darkness cheating in Small Favors that dragged Uriel into the story, and it seems the Prince of Darkness cheating in Changes dragged Uriel back in again.

I think this is probably true and since starting the series Jim said he'd end it with an apocalyptic trio.  Nothing starts an apocalypse quite as well as finding wrong with the devil and probably fighting it at some point knowing Harry.

[jb5357]

  Then we get a little bit of Thomas, near the end of the book, and it's good. However, I don't understand why he will be able to make love to Justine just because she's going to make love to someone else, first? Why wouldn't they have done this long before? Maybe I'm just missing something. I'm not the brightest bulb on the block.:-D. Anyway, I was sort of hoping that Thomas would offer to be the Next Summer Knight in return for being able to make love to Justine.
 

What i have gathered from earlier books is that this thought has occurred to them before, but they never acted to protect justine. as long as justine was poison to thomas, she was untouchable by ANY white court vamp.  therefore no one could use her against thomas, which will now be ineveitable.  this leads me to believe that in a book in the near future harry will have to help thomas rescue justine to redress the imbalance his death caused.

[randeedoo]

just finished and yes the harry molly kincaid thing was quite interesting, what got me is how squirrelly and sneaky Uriel apparently is

What else did you expect from Heavens 'Spook'?

[randeedoo]

Well, first of all, I think Karrin will feel betrayed. I mean, when they were talking in his appartment in Changes, when he told her what was happening, she put herself in the line for him, she promised she would be there to the end with him to get his daughter back, she compromised. But when the time came, he did not tell her of his suicide plan, that would be the motive she would feel betrayed, him hidding things from her. I think she could actually understand his motives for doing so, though. She knew what was at line.

What he did to the city? I don't know, the city went to hell because the Red Court was killed and yes, also because he was gone, but mostly because of the power vacum. I don't think she would hold it against him. Again, she knew what was in line when she set up to the mission with him.

I can't imagine her reaction to the shooter being Kincaid. I just can't. But mostly, I think she will be angry at Harry, and would probably rule out a relationship in the next couple of books, but I don't think it would be the same as what happened with Susan.

I wonder whether the reason Harry didn't tell Karrin what he had planned was because he thought she'd stop him, or because she'd insist on doing it herself after hearing his reasoning.

Of course we know she'd have slapped him upside the head & told him to stop being an idiot, but Harry wasn't exactly thinking rationally right then.

[LogicMouseLives]

I wonder whether the reason Harry didn't tell Karrin what he had planned was because he thought she'd stop him, or because she'd insist on doing it herself after hearing his reasoning.

Of course we know she'd have slapped him upside the head & told him to stop being an idiot, but Harry wasn't exactly thinking rationally right then.

I think you're right about her reaction, but the main reason Harry didn't tell Karrin about it was that she wasn't anywhere nearby at the time, and he was under some serious time constraints. He had to get the job done quickly. He was just 'lucky' that Molly–the one person he absolutely needed to pull off the plan–was right there.

I'm looking forward to seeing it when Murphy finally finds out that he arranged the whole thing. He'll be in yet another world of hurt.

LML

[xakko]

I'm looking forward to seeing it when Murphy finally finds out that he arranged the whole thing. He'll be in yet another world of hurt.

LML

I think that - maybe after another right cross or a gut shot - she will understand.

from Ghost Story, Chapter 18, page 176

'She [Murphy] looked away.  It was a moment before she answered. 'With someone that powerful ... there's not really a choice.  If you try to take them alive, they have plenty of time to kill you.''

If she buys into the idea that Harry was certain he'd be a monster, she might have done it herself, and would appreciate that Harry didn't ask her.  Because she would've messed it up.  Kincaid wouldn't.  He doesn't miss.  Ever. 

However, I do see her never forgiving Kincaid *if* he did come over to comfort her as Harry imagined he had.  That would be too much.  If not, I think she might forgive Kincaid too, as it was his job, and again, the idea was to remove a monster.

[Jared]

That seems an unimportant distinction. What do you think Demonreach should call the tree, if not parasite? My woody thrall? 

Magic is created by life and Demonreach is sitting on/part of(?) a leyline, which is a concentration of magic. So I would think that he'd call a tree part of the magical cycle.

[Ashen0DarkFyre]

One question.

Who hired Stevie D, the pistols gunman who almost offs Butters in Changes?

[Jared]

Boy, oh boy. So many other things to talk about. 

Let's start with the whisperer.

Uriel's description of the perp is pretty damned clear: Not just an angel, not just one of the Fallen but, "A being who could know a mortal's entire life. Could know his dreams. His fears. His very thoughts. Such a being, so versed in human nature, in mortal patterns of thought, could reliably predict precisely how a given mortal would react to almost anything." (GS page 450)

There's only one such being who has been in the position to know Harry in particular that well. Lasciel's Shadow. To me the conclusion seems painfully clear and inescapable:

Neurovore was right.

Not only was Lash not 100% gone after the end of White Night, she was not 100% redeemed. I don't think it's a coincidence that we were introduced (rather forcefully) in this book to the possibility and consequences of a spiritual being splitting itself into pieces over a deep disagreement, as Bob did with NecroBob.

My hypothesis at this point is that while the majority of the entity known as Lash accepted Harry's gift of a name and a piece of his soul, and gave up her existence––or at least that part of her existence that was directly connected to his brain––to save him from Vitto Malvora, in doing it, she left behind a very small portion of herself that disagreed with the decision. It was too weak to carry any connection to the true Lasciel anymore, thus the loss of the mark and the Hellfire, but just strong enough to hang in there for years, waiting for the right moment to blow its wad in a last ditch attempt to wipe him off the face of the earth. (Whether in retribution for resisting her or to try and prevent him from playing the role for which he is needed in future events hardly matters.)

I have two questions.

1) Why did Lashadow appear to be outside of Harry's body in Uriel's flashback?
2) If some of Lashadow survived, why could not some of Lash survive? That would allow Lash to be the one that said "Lies..." and give a nice bit of symmetry.

But that still leaves the question open: How was that cheating? Harry and Lasciel's Shadow spoke many times during her residency. She provided him with Hellfire, showed him tricks for escaping from dangerous situations, and generally interfered in his life a great deal, without any noticeable balancing efforts from the other side. So how is this one sentence different?

Those were all requested and accepted by Harry. The trick to block out pain, as I recall, Harry had to ask for. And Lasciel didn't translate Etruscan until he said to. The Hellfire's a little trickier. He did explicitly call it up later on, I would need to look back for the first couple of uses.

The seven word whisper==seven word whisper.

I'm still bothered by that. Seems way too easy.

[dsolo]

   I think everyone's being a little harsh about Harry involving Molly.  He trusts her, and he was literally out of options to save his daughter.  A choice between saving Maggie/becoming a monster or being completely helpless while the BC and the Red Court took over.   Either way, his friends would have been in trouble.  Kincaid was a good choice, because he's a professional and he'd make it clean.  How would Molly have felt if he survived as Winter Knight, and turned into someone like Lloyd?
   My feeling was that he wasn't going to get out of that contract so easily, and since he was in the lake, I thought Demonreach would have something to say about it.  Losing everything in "Changes" seemed to be a good way to enable him to set up shop on Demonreach.
I only read the first 8 pages of posts, so someone else may have noticed this.  In the flashback with Shagnasty (maybe Harry is a namer), it seemed like he recognized Harry as something other than a wizard.  I got the impression that he was trying to take Harry out before he became more powerful. 
   re: Harry and Molly, the age difference between them is a lot less than between Harry and Luccio, so no agism here.  Karrin has too many hangups to be a good long term match for Harry, but she would be a kickass Knight (tiny, but fierce!).  Do you think he and Elaine will ever reunite?
   As for missing characters, I did notice Mac's absence.  He's not a major character, but he's always just there, being mysterious and competent.  Harry wasn't the only one wondering about Thomas.  I'm glad we got to see him at the end.  Any chance that becoming a Knight would eliminate his vampire traits, and reunite him with Justine?
   It's time to reread "Changes", or perhaps the whole series.  It just keeps getting more complex and interesting.  BTW, Billy should be a dad now (per the events of "Even Hand").  Does Harry even know about that?

[LogicMouseLives]

I have two questions.

1) Why did Lashadow appear to be outside of Harry's body in Uriel's flashback?
2) If some of Lashadow survived, why could not some of Lash survive? That would allow Lash to be the one that said "Lies..." and give a nice bit of symmetry.

Well,
1) She almost always showed up as a separate entity when they were talking (any time it wouldn't be too much of a distraction for him), and the flashback Uriel was showing him is certainly not likely to be precisely representative of what a person standing there at the time would have seen. She's 'perceived' as an outside force, for the sake of being perceived at all.
2) I think you missed some of the point of this bit of my comment:

Not only was Lash not 100% gone after the end of White Night, she was not 100% redeemed. I don't think it's a coincidence that we were introduced (rather forcefully) in this book to the possibility and consequences of a spiritual being splitting itself into pieces over a deep disagreement, as Bob did with NecroBob.

I think (based more on cryptic comments from Jim than anything in the books to date) that Lash did survive in some form, but she may very well not be present in the same manner, or her voice (if she even has one at this point) might not have the power to properly balance the dark-Lash's comments. Or maybe Uriel just wanted to do it hands on, because he sort of promised Harry that he would.

Those were all requested and accepted by Harry. The trick to block out pain, as I recall, Harry had to ask for. And Lasciel didn't translate Etruscan until he said to. The Hellfire's a little trickier. He did explicitly call it up later on, I would need to look back for the first couple of uses.

Hmm. Good point. But there were plenty of things Lasciel's Shadow did that Harry didn't ask for: playing shell games with the envelope in Proven Guilty, terrifying him into almost jumping out the window in Dead Beat after he figured out what Sheila really was, quite possibly other things we still haven't found out about. But none of those things appear to have been 'out-of-bounds' as far as the cosmic laws, the way the whisper was. So the mystery remains.

LML