Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**

[mjs4484]

The way that I took it, when Mab snapped at Demonreach that Harry was hers to shape as she pleased, was that as long as Harry thought it was possible for her to do so, it WAS true. So Mab wasn't lying even though her statement was not empirically true.

ON another note, one thing that irked me was how, in Harry's remembering of the time Molly erased from his memory, Kincaid seemed not to remember that he had just heard from Harry several hours or a day or two ago. I have the audiobook so pinpointing the exact moment would take a while. Can anyone with the physical book provide the text for the phone calls from Changes and Ghost Story?

[Sue]

Definately worth the wait. Wow.

Going to do some rereading before posting more ... Thanks JB!

[zraith]

No, the simplest explanation is usually the best. Look at how Demonreach talks. It uses odd words for things. It would not sound right if Demonreach called it a "tree". Parasite is the sort of odd word Demonreach would use to refer to the tree.

And the distinction you refer to is hardly important. My body digests food and my parasites aid in the digestion process. Just two different ways of referring to a process at different levels.

Except that the "parasite" is specifically mentioned in connection with the circulation of blood, not of digestion. Remember the tree is associated with IV tubes going into Harry. But *something* still needs to keep his heart beating. I think that some fragment of Lash remaining behind is the most likely explanation.

Demonreach said this: "Mab gave you breath. Here provided nourishment. The Parasite maintained the flow of blood."

That Here is Demonreach, its referring to itself, the island and everything on it. The Parasite, a third entity, that Demonreach is referring to could only have come from 2 places, before Harry was killed or after the time that Mab got his body. And who else has a vested interest in keeping Harry alive that can do such a thing? And its not with digestion or circulation, Mab saved his body and fixed the damage, Demonreach provided the nutrients for the body with the tree roots and the Parasite (personally I think its Lash or Lasciel) maintained the body until Harry returned to it.

The other thing to keep in mind is the human body can not run on the same red blood cells for 6 months, they only last between 100-120 days since their maturation in the marrow before being recycled. Parasite also means something that lives off something else and for the most part not providing returns for what it took and the Tree was clearly giving something to Harry and not living off him.

It was also stated in past books that the Fallen are like parasite to their hosts and only Nicodemus and Anduriel have what can be called a symbiotic relationship with each other.

[Glorificus]

Demonreach said this: "Mab gave you breath. Here provided nourishment. The Parasite maintained the flow of blood."

Maybe not relevant, but in other threads here they are saying Lash is the parasite.

[yeanomaybe]

I've been reading through this thread just to make sure I don't repeat anyone... There's a couple questions I have.

Am I the only one who made the connection between gods and demons thrown out from other places, living in the sea as a description of the Fomor and the Lovecraftian mythos? If Cthulhu shows up in the next book, I would be extremely surprised, but strangely satisfied.

Speaking of Lovecraft, even the name Chaunzaggorath reminds me of him and his naming scheme. Could just be that JB felt that name sounded particularly demonic...

He still have no idea what Demonreach's other powers are besides local intellectus. We also don't know what "lives on the other side" of the island. Plus, it almost seems that Mab is scared of Demonreach in the last couple chapters of Ghost Story. Wonder of wonders, eh? The whole significance of the island being the "spring" of dark energy as opposed to just a channel for it also still hasn't been explained. There's gotta be a pretty big baddie on the other side, but if The Gatekeeper, and Peabody are acquainted with it... Would that also imply that the Black Council/Circle (or whatever it's called) has some sort of alliance with this hypothetical Big Baddie?

Also, when discussing the Fomor, Lea said something about them being thrown out "a long time ago"... My question is whether the Nevernever was created with the rest of supposed Creation (and therefore answers to the Guy Upstairs) or has its own creators and gods... or is even just the creation of assorted beliefs. In Ghost Story Harry talks about forming his own demesne in the Nevernever. Could it be that the Sidhe are mortal spirits that grew to be ridiculously strong in the Nevernever through an incredible amount of time there?

I want to see the Erlking back. That guy was a boss. In conjunction with that, will Thomas eventually have to hunt Harry? Does the Erlking have a mortal knight (now or has he ever had one)?

Concerning necromancy and death in "shades of gray", how could Kemmler, the most accomplished necromancer mentioned in the series so far, just drop into death and bid farewell to life so easily when one of his apprentices, Corpsetaker, only took a year to almost return him/her/itself to a body. I see an Evil Bob and Kemmler reunion. Or maybe Kemmler put part of himself into Evil Bob? I'm speculating pretty hardcore right now.

In response to the whole Mab-lying debate: The lies are in the meaning of what she says, not in the words themselves. I also think the idea that the Sidhe can now lie would be pretty weak if JB just threw that out there now. I seem to recall other members of the White Council (maybe Ebenezer?) saying that the Sidhe unequivocally CAN NOT LIE. They seem to have been around long enough to know...

Any bets on in which book the White Council completely collapses/Harry becomes a senior council member?

In closing, if that parasite is Lash... Awesome.

[Lord Kasavin]

I've been reading through this thread just to make sure I don't repeat anyone... There's a couple questions I have.

Am I the only one who made the connection between gods and demons thrown out from other places, living in the sea as a description of the Fomor and the Lovecraftian mythos? If Cthulhu shows up in the next book, I would be extremely surprised, but strangely satisfied

Fomorians are actually part of Irish or Gaelic mythology, so they predate Lovecraft by a couple hundred years or millenia.  Also, Cthulu has really been overdone in pop culture lately.  I think Outsiders are inspired by Lovecraftian molds, and I am fine with that, but actually including the name Cthulu would just make me think of the "why vote for the lesser of two evils" bumper sticker.  Black Goat with a Thousand Young on the otherhand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians

He still have no idea what Demonreach's other powers are besides local intellectus. We also don't know what "lives on the other side" of the island. Plus, it almost seems that Mab is scared of Demonreach in the last couple chapters of Ghost Story. Wonder of wonders, eh? The whole significance of the island being the "spring" of dark energy as opposed to just a channel for it also still hasn't been explained. There's gotta be a pretty big baddie on the other side, but if The Gatekeeper, and Peabody are acquainted with it... Would that also imply that the Black Council/Circle (or whatever it's called) has some sort of alliance with this hypothetical Big Baddie?

We don't know much about Demonreach, you are right.  However, I would like to point out that intellectus alone is enough to make Mab fear it.  Sidhe thrive on misdirection and deceit, and Demonreach can see through any deception on the island.  The Mothers probably have that ability, but she does not.  Beyond that, Demonreach does have a lot of just good old fashion energy.  Both spiritual energy from nature, and energy from ley line. 

I want to see the Erlking back. That guy was a boss. In conjunction with that, will Thomas eventually have to hunt Harry? Does the Erlking have a mortal knight (now or has he ever had one)?

Why would Thomas ever hunt Harry?  He owes no allegiance to the Erlking, he just joined the Wild Hunt for an evening instead of getting killed by it.  Meanwhile, I don't see why the Erlking would have a Knight.  Knights are mortal Champions of the Courts, not the Queens Who Are, though usually the distinction does not come up often.  The Erlking doesn't have a court, he's a wildfae (essentially neutral to the 2 dominant courts) with power comparable to the Queens Who Are, but would be no match to Winter or Summer in their entirety. 

Concerning necromancy and death in "shades of gray", how could Kemmler, the most accomplished necromancer mentioned in the series so far, just drop into death and bid farewell to life so easily when one of his apprentices, Corpsetaker, only took a year to almost return him/her/itself to a body. I see an Evil Bob and Kemmler reunion. Or maybe Kemmler put part of himself into Evil Bob? I'm speculating pretty hardcore right now.

Go back and read the part on Kemmler in Dead Beat.  They White Council did kill him, several times, and finally in 1961 or so found a way to make it stick.  We don't really have the details of how they did it, except it involved the Wardens, the Senior Council, any wizard with combat ability they could get to go along, and any other supernatural ally they could find.  On an interesting side note, this was detonated in 1961. 

That is my 2 cents to some of your questions/comments.

[novaseaker]

I really don't think Mab was lying or being deceitful at all. Go back and read the discussion between Harry and Mab after Uriel's seven words. Harry is not telling Mab she can't change him. He's convincing her not to. She certainly can change him, but doing it would destroy the bits about him she actually likes/wants/needs. That doesn't mean its beyond her capability, though. At any time, she could just shrug and say "meh, don't care anymore" and warp Harry into a mindless servitor.

I mean, any dark magic wizard could break the Fourth Law of Magic and enthrall someone. A practitioner of enough power could even do it to Harry.

Are you saying that Mab doesn't have that power?

[kdix]

I have several questions that I STILL haven't seen answers for, and I'd expected them after Changes.

1. Who is Harry's grandmother (Maggie's mother/Ebenezar's lover)? Is it Summer Queen Titania? Jim Butcher said years ago in a talk that Titania hadn't been introduced for a reason. I can only assume he was saving her for a later book.
2. Why was Bob so nervous about a) the NeverNever and b) Mab? Is he totally screwed now that Harry is the Winter Knight, since he wanted absolutely nothing to do with anything that would bring him into Mab's view?
3. What was the POINT of Harry being sent back? To rescue Molly, kill Corpsetaker and assist the rest of the Chicago crew? Or did Uriel have a more advanced motive? I did a quick read-through for my first pass and am halfway through my second pass of Ghost Story, so perhaps I missed something.
4. Do we have titles for the remaining volumes of the 20-volume Dresden Files cycle?
5. Why didn't we see a return of the Nightmare? There were a few shades I'd have expected to appear along with Corpsetaker.

And finally, props to Butters (my favorite supporting character) and Mort. I'm just disappointed that Tyrannasaurus Sue didn't make an appearance, since ghostly types were the focus of this book.

[MollyFanboy]

Not sure if I'm the only one who thinks this, but the whole mental sequence with the Molly's on the Bridge of the Enterprise was probably one of the most dramatic, hilarious, tear-jerking and mind-blowing sequences I have ever read in a book. Ever.

[napgirl]

I have several questions that I STILL haven't seen answers for, and I'd expected them after Changes.

1. Who is Harry's grandmother (Maggie's mother/Ebenezar's lover)? Is it Summer Queen Titania? Jim Butcher said years ago in a talk that Titania hadn't been introduced for a reason. I can only assume he was saving her for a later book.
2. Why was Bob so nervous about a) the NeverNever and b) Mab? Is he totally screwed now that Harry is the Winter Knight, since he wanted absolutely nothing to do with anything that would bring him into Mab's view?
3. What was the POINT of Harry being sent back? To rescue Molly, kill Corpsetaker and assist the rest of the Chicago crew? Or did Uriel have a more advanced motive? I did a quick read-through for my first pass and am halfway through my second pass of Ghost Story, so perhaps I missed something.
4. Do we have titles for the remaining volumes of the 20-volume Dresden Files cycle?
5. Why didn't we see a return of the Nightmare? There were a few shades I'd have expected to appear along with Corpsetaker.

And finally, props to Butters (my favorite supporting character) and Mort. I'm just disappointed that Tyrannasaurus Sue didn't make an appearance, since ghostly types were the focus of this book.

in reverse order-5. the corspestaker was nutters&doesn't play well with others. plus, there are many more books.
4. the next one is titled cold days& somewhere in woj he says that empty night, stars &stones and hell's bells are curses for reason where Jim alludes to those being the final three.
3. i think the point is harry changed and he needed to. be more introspective, think outside of the box& be willing to face what his decisions do to others. plus a nifty way to insert some history that has hitherto has no easy entry point into the plot.
2. dude, mab-queen of air&darkness. her sobriquet is practically "be afraid". &bob has a history with her. *shivers* and bob is a spirit, which means something in nevernever that it doesn't in the mortal sphere-meaning bob can be destroyed permanently-i'd be afraid of that. and butters has him now, so will see where he ends up.
1. titiana as harry's grandma? that actually is kinda a cool theory-&would explain much about his mom. but there could be another reason why we've yet to see either one of these women. and who says she was eb's lover only? could have had a wife...or it was someone else's wife...

[huangjimmy108]

Guys, Do you think Harry will stop having money problem now that he is WK? It will be interesting to see Harry having cool outfit like sub-con Harry for one thing, able to bribe CPD officers, driving big cars and so on. He had been poor all this time and the Warden's pay only go so far. What do you guys think?

[Taylor0401]

Corpsetaker, only took a year to almost return him/her/itself to a body

Harry shot Corpsetaker in Dead Beat, that was roughly 5 years before Ghost Story, give or take.  Kemmler was killed I think seven times by the Wardens before he stopped coming back and it never says how often he was popping back up.  My guess is that Corpsetaker just didn't have the experience and/or the know-how to efficiently pull off defying death post-mortem.

[john4200]

I mean, any dark magic wizard could break the Fourth Law of Magic and enthrall someone. A practitioner of enough power could even do it to Harry.

Are you saying that Mab doesn't have that power?

Mab could probably do that. She could make Harry into a mindless thrall. But then, it is not Harry doing something, it is Mab controlling him completely. As McCoy said in Changes, Mab can make Harry do things, but she cannot make Harry choose to do anything. It is a fine distinction, but important. If Mab makes Harry a mindless thrall, then it is no different than if Mab did all the things herself -- Harry's body would just be an extension of Mab's own. But if Mab managed to get Harry to do something of his own free will, that is really shaping him, making him into into someone willing to do evil. But Mab cannot do that unless Harry chooses to allow it. So, at the deepest level, it is NOT within Mab's power to shape Harry.

[Taylor0401]

I haven't seen this brought up in any of the forums yet, and only just now occurred to me.  Near the beginning of the book, Stu tells Harry that the lemurs got past Mort's threshold, but he didn't know how.  Was it ever explained how that happened?

[dzimmerm]

In regards to Deomonreach referring to a parasite.

To an island, which is what Demonreach is, a tree might be considered a parasite as it lives off the minerals and water of the island. Minerals that are processed and released into the atmosphere would be effectively lost to the island.

I don't think Lash or her evil progenitor is still around.

Another point, the reason the FAE can not lie probably has to do with the fact that the very substance they are made of would be unmade if a falsehood was done. The power of a a being over magic comes from their ability to work with reality. Lies negate reality. So for a FAE to lie would be a negation of their reality and the magic that makes them possible.

I loved this book, and will read it again as time permits to see what I missed in my hurry at enjoying the reading the first time.

dzimmerm