Author Topic: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**  (Read 257953 times)

MrsAWiggins05

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #465 on: October 14, 2011, 02:58:07 PM »
IMHO, all dashingly handsome men have a fedora or Stetson nearby if not on their heads. Yes, I'm from the rural south.

Offline TruffleShufflen

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #466 on: November 06, 2011, 04:10:21 AM »
Any bets on how many more books before Murphy officially picks up that sword?  She obviously needs some shrink-work first, but...

I hope soon. She needs to take up the sowrd. Let us remember when in the book when he had his sight open and saw Murphy as a warrior princess. It only makes sense that she should get the sword.
He died doing the right thing.

Offline Me Grimlock King

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #467 on: November 07, 2011, 02:29:15 PM »
I'm in the process of rereading Dead Beat, and saw that when Harry first goes to Murphy's house (formerly her grandmas)  He mentioned that the only thing that Murphy had really added to the house was a rack with two Japanese swords.  Fidelacchius is a katana, foreshadowing much? 
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Offline Akankie

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #468 on: November 20, 2011, 05:53:51 AM »
I think McCoy has to have his hands tied by the Council and maybe trying to prevent Molly from being hunted as much.  I mean, I'm sure he was royally pissed at whoever killed Harry, but he also knew how upset Harry was over the choices he was forced to make.  Maybe he knew that Harry was going to find a way out of Mab's grips, and while he didn't agree with them, he accepted them.

Does anyone else see EB as the bad guy, he is the blackstaff after all he didn't get involved with helping Harry out tell he found out about the bloodline curse affecting him. I mean come on he's totally black council, he's just using the "gray council" to occupy harry and to weed out the good guys from the ones he can use.
Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #469 on: November 20, 2011, 08:41:01 AM »
Does anyone else see EB as the bad guy, he is the blackstaff after all he didn't get involved with helping Harry out tell he found out about the bloodline curse affecting him. I mean come on he's totally black council, he's just using the "gray council" to occupy harry and to weed out the good guys from the ones he can use.

He figured that having Harry help with the council's counterattack was more important than saving one child that was probably already dead or turned (from his point of view). Also, couldn't he just hide behind a few Wards in the Nevernever if self-preservation was his goal?

And don't we have a Soulgaze confirming he's a good guy (Also, why would being the Blackstaff make him automatically evil)?
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Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #470 on: November 20, 2011, 03:15:17 PM »
The soul gaze didn't reveal Eb was the WC assassin.  You would think that killing people; not just bad guys but innocents who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, would stain a person after a while.  Remember Eb has been the Blackstaff for almost two centuries (He mentions New Madrid as one of his hits. Those earthquakes occurred in 1811-12.), and people can change over time. 

I'm not saying I believe Eb is BC, but I can see why others would think he could be.   
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

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Offline Akankie

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #471 on: November 22, 2011, 03:34:19 AM »
He figured that having Harry help with the council's counterattack was more important than saving one child that was probably already dead or turned (from his point of view). Also, couldn't he just hide behind a few Wards in the Nevernever if self-preservation was his goal?

And don't we have a Soulgaze confirming he's a good guy (Also, why would being the Blackstaff make him automatically evil)?

Ah but if the council's attack was so important to him why did he leave it. If it was me I wouldn't take the chance on the curse working Ortaga's widow was putting it together specifically for him don't you think she would have thought about him doing just that and taken precautions against it.

The soul gaze isn't a lie detector and it's a one shot deal people change besides that EB might think he's perfectly justified in forming the BC like Jim often says people rarely think of themselves as the monster.

Being the black staff doesn't automatically make him evil it just means he is willing to violate everything he claims he believes in to further his and the council's agenda if that wouldn't  screw up the sanest of people I don't know what would.

Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #472 on: November 22, 2011, 04:08:20 AM »
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Ah but if the council's attack was so important to him why did he leave it.

Either it was pretty much doomed to fail at that point or his protectiveness of Harry (and Lea arranging that they would arrive) made him go and ensure Harry and friends got Maggie out.

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if that wouldn't  screw up the sanest of people I don't know what would.

Don't we have Woj that he simply gets tons of nightmares (and more than a little bit of guilt) from doing his job?

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If it was me I wouldn't take the chance on the curse working Ortaga's widow was putting it together specifically for him don't you think she would have thought about him doing just that and taken precautions against it.

If there was a way to stop curses losing most of their potency going from the normal world to the Nevernever wouldn't it be used constantly?
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Offline bbwoof

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #473 on: December 19, 2011, 08:44:26 PM »
I just finished rereading Ghost Story, and was struck by an apparent contradiction.  Consider these two assumptions:
1) Creatures of Faerie cannot tell outright untruths.  They can deceive, but it can't be by outright lying.
2) Uriel would not lie.

Now consider that at the end of Ghost Story, Uriel accuses Mab of outright lying.  How long will it take Harry to notice, and how will he resolve this contradiction?

If it turns out that Mab can lie, then the whole Spencerian culture of Faerie is turned on its ear.  Many actions and statements of Mab -- and Lea -- and several Summerfae -- suddenly become incomprehensible, and everything we thought we knew about dealing with Faerie is invalid.

On the other hand, if Uriel would lie, then his assurance that Mab cannot change Harry is invalid.  How will that affect Harry's future interactions with Mab as her Knight, and how could he make his independence stick?  Will he have 300-600 years of constantly fighting to *not be a monster* to look forward to?  (I mean, in addition to the "normal" temptations of a mortal wizard.)

Interesting times ahead...

Offline Ziggelly

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #474 on: December 19, 2011, 09:31:16 PM »
It really depends on what your definition of "lying" is. The fey can stretch the truth quite extensively.

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #475 on: December 21, 2011, 07:04:06 AM »
Someone else expressed what I am about to say much better in another thread which I can't find, but it goes something like this:

What Mab said was a lie, but it was a lie that she believed.  She wasn't knowingly telling a lie. 
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #476 on: December 25, 2011, 10:11:55 AM »
It really depends on what your definition of "lying" is. The fey can stretch the truth quite extensively.

And what Uriels definition of lying is. I assume that because he is speaking to Harry his is a mor human definition.

From Dead Beat:
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"You know, wizard, that I may speak no word
that is untrue. Thus is my word given to you."

You can deceive someone by telling incomplete truths leading to a wrong conclusion. Uriel and most humans would consider this lying because while all statements are true the underlying message is not. Language is communication and at the end it is the message that counts.

You can use ambivalent statements or statements that suggest more than they strictly mean. Human communication is full of that and it can make life interesting. But not in this setting. Again Uriel and most humans would consider the underlying suggestion a lie. Like the unseely accords the spirit of the text does not count for the Sidhe. But they know what it does to humans.

If we look at the lie/truth:
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“I have his oath, ancient one. What he has given is mine by right, and you may not gainsay it. He is mine to shape as I please.”

None of these statements are untrue. Only the last statement is open for different interpretations. Harrys interpretation is the one Mab wants Harry to believe but it is certainly not the correct one.

Like a sculptor and a piece of stone you are restricted in shaping it by the nature of the stone. The ways you can do so are also restricted by practical considerations. Some changes imply other changes you do not want. But nobody is going to interfere Mab trying.

There must be limits otherwise she could take any human and make it into what she wants. She would not have bothered with Harry.

Also while Mab can not change Harrys soul (Which is Uriels prime concern but maybe not Mabs. She just wants him to do what she wants and wants him to want to do so.) Harry can do so and Mab can try to make Harry do so. Harry should have been warned about that. It is what Eb said in Changes:

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“She might lean on you pretty hard. Try to put you into a box you don’t want to be in. But don’t let her. She can’t take away your will. Even if she can make it seem that way.” He sighed again, but there was bedrock in his voice. “That’s the one thing all these dark beings and powers can’t do. Take away your ability to choose. They can kill you. They can make you do things—but they can’t make you choose to do ’em. They almost always try to lie to you about that. Don’t fall for it.”
“I won’t,” I said. I looked up at him and said, “Thank you, Grandfather.”

That is what she was trying to do. Eb's warning was not enough but Uriels came at the right moment.

The lie is in the suggestion which does not count as an untruth because That was not Mab's saying. It was Harry himself.



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Offline fiorenzo

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #477 on: December 28, 2011, 05:43:09 AM »
Hello!  I'm new to the forum (first post) and just finished reading Ghost Story.  I enjoyed the story immensely -- I love all the shout outs to geek culture and I just couldn't wait to see how Harry would pull out of this one since he was "dead" -- but I have a question about the premise of the book.  I apologize if this have already been discussed:

I understand that when Harry was shot on the boat and fell into the water, Mab took his body and saved it from physically dying.  Then, if I understand correctly, Harry's soul (spirit?) went to the "spirit" Chicago.  Uriel wanted to right an imbalance that occurred when the Fallen angel whispered to Harry.  But I thought the re-balancing was achieved by Uriel's own seven whispered words, which didn't occur until after Harry returned to his body in the care of Mab and Demonreach. 

So, what's up with everything that happened in between?  It seems that the goal was for Harry to discover that he arranged for his own death -- and, apparently, Uriel and co. were not allowed to directly tell him this fact -- but why?  Why was Uriel concerned with Harry being aware?  If Harry (the ghost) had not gone on the adventures described in this book, would his soul not have just shot straight to his body where Mab and Demonreach were nursing it?  Sure, he would not have known about the circumstances of his death, but Uriel could still have whispered his seven words of encouragement.  It seems, that by holding up Harry's soul for 6 months and then sending him back on this mission of discovery and conveniently foiling the Corpsetaker's plans, Uriel was meddling a lot in mortal affairs.

Not that I'm complaining; it made for a very entertaining story.  It just seems that Uriel went way beyond "balancing" the Fallen angel's action.  Uriel must have way more latitude than some other angels, like the angel of death who was standing by in case Forthill died.

Offline dmcgr19800

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #478 on: January 03, 2012, 10:35:55 PM »
Which Shadow influenced him? Lasciel? The daughter of Nicodemos? Nicodemus himself?
Has Mab bitten off more than she can chew enlisting Harry to be a winter knight?
     Will he and his god-mother usurp Mab? Freeing Harry?
How powerful is mouse?
During Ghost Story Harry's was not dead. How could he be a shade / spirit ?

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #479 on: January 04, 2012, 02:35:51 AM »
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     Will he and his god-mother usurp Mab? Freeing Harry?

Of course not, all that would do is make sure Lea is Winter Queen (or Winter Lady) instead of Mab, in addition to causing horrible problems for Earth and unbalancing the Faerie Courts.

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How powerful is mouse?

It appears to vary, sometimes he's weaker than Kumori, other times he's stronger than Lea.

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Which Shadow influenced him?

We'll find out, a fair portion of this forum thinks Lasciel though.

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Has Mab bitten off more than she can chew enlisting Harry to be a winter knight?

Probably not.
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Rest in peace mdodd.