Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**

[ali.jubilee]

If the shadow was not lasciel, I would be curious to know how it got into the church... Can fallen enter holy found with impunity?

[Taylor0401]

The only time I recall there being any mention of whether or not the Fallen can enter the church is when Lash says that they choose not to because being that close to God reminds them of what they no longer have and it makes them sad.  That being said, I find it hard to believe that one could just walk in and mess with people though.  I feel like there's something we're missing here or maybe something that Jim just has up his sleeve in the way of an explanation for who this Fallen might be.

[omfgitsbacon]

Hmm is it possible to have a Fallen possess or cooperate with a human being? without being a considered a Denarian?

[Taylor0401]

Yeah, but I remember saying something earlier about how if that were the case then wouldn't the fact that the Fallen acted with a mortal proxy make the whole thing not count as "cheating" the way Uriel defines it?

[Goblynpunk]

I don't remember this... what exactly are you referring to?

And the Denarians are not free willed beings.  Only the people possessing the coins still have free will.  The Fallen themselves are still technically Angels and subsequently have never been given free will.

You mean the Fallen didn't choose to Fall? In that case, they're not The Fallen...they are The Pushed.

Even Lash had free will. She chose to burn herself out to save Harry, rather than let Harry die. I can't see how a shadow of a Fallen can have more free will than the Fallen itself.

What I was driving at is the fact that the Nickelheads have a countering agent...The KNights of the Cross. When the Nickelheads begin raising Hell, The Knights (not the Archangels) step in to counter them. It seems to me, for Uriel to be allowed to step in and intervene, then something more powerful than Nicodemus and his crew must be breaking the rules.

Besides, those thirty fallen angels are all bound within coins. None of them could leave the coin to whisper in Harry's ear. So you're looking at a fallen angel that *isn't* trapped within a coin.

Yep...my money is on Old Scratch, himself.

[Taylor0401]

Lash having free will was something that Harry pointed out to her in White Night.  He said that there was no reason she couldn't have free will because she wasn't actually Lasciel, meaning that Lash isn't technically a Fallen.  Just like Harry's abilities and perceptions change when he's just a shadow of himself, Lash's must have too.  And while I'm not disagreeing that it could have been Lucifer himself, I think that a Fallen not trapped in one of the coins is more likely.  The Knights of the Cross are a counter to the KotBD but their general purpose is to combat evil, and I'm sure that where a Fallen happens to reside doesn't change the fact that the KotC would be in direct opposition to them.  Also, I certainly never meant to imply that there are Fallen that didn't choose to Fall.  Although now that I think of it, that is sort of implied in the Bible where it says that when Lucifer was cast down his tail swept a full third of the stars from the sky.  I've always thought of that as him taking Angels with him.  These are just my thoughts though, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[coffipls]

Absolutely dumbfounded. Truly an excellent way to end that novel.

Argh! I need to stop getting into series early. Wait times kill me!

i agree!!!! i as soooooo happy when i got the email that the book i pre-orderd was ready! now i have to wait for another 6+ months for the next book.  but the wait is well worth it.

[pobabylon]

I would also like to add that Harry as the Winter Knight amplifying his own power plus the sponsored soulfire has to be close to the same power as that of the senior council.   I doubt that many off the senior council would be much of a match for Harry!

i find that unlikely.. maybe i'm wrong (i've just started my 2nd read through of the series, and i'm only beginning Summer Knight now) but the Knight Mantle, while giving a significant boost, doesn't make harry the equal of the Senior council. maybe he's in the top 20 or so world wide in sheer power, but as we've seen proven time and again, brute strength doesn't mean automatic victory. and in the cunning and experience department, the senior council has collectively got hundreds of years on harry.


i didn't read this entire topic so maybe i missed this.. but has anyone expressed thoughts on how harry being in the winter court will effect his Za Lord Guards power. seems like getting Winter sponsorship is gonna swell their magical muscles alittle.. anyone else expect these initially completely irrelevant and puny faeries to end up as moderately heavy hitters in dresden's arsenal?

[Taylor0401]

anyone else expect these initially completely irrelevant and puny faeries to end up as moderately heavy hitters in dresden's arsenal?

I'd like to point out you're talking about a group of Little Folk that managed to kill the Summer Lady roughly 10 years ago.  I would say that in some respects they're already moderately heavy hitters, at least when properly employed.

[dantesparadise]

If the shadow was not lasciel, I would be curious to know how it got into the church... Can fallen enter holy found with impunity?

I think its just straight Lucifer. The fact that he LIED seems significant. Most of the fallen that we have seen haven't used blatant lies.  Twisted truths maybe  but not out right falsehoods.  Prince of Lies and all.  Plus there are evil priests so I'm sure the devil can find his way into the church

[nikko528]

Did anyone ever think that the flashback memories were about Elaine also and not just He Who Walks Behind?  She was a significant person in Harry's life.  The only reason they did not look back at that those feelings was because Susan was in the picture.  What is to stop it now?  Maybe that is why Harry/Molly feels forced.

[Katarn]

Hmm is it possible to have a Fallen possess or cooperate with a human being? without being a considered a Denarian?

....Or someone in the Church was holding a Coin.

[Vikermac]

i didn't read this entire topic so maybe i missed this.. but has anyone expressed thoughts on how harry being in the winter court will effect his Za Lord Guards power. seems like getting Winter sponsorship is gonna swell their magical muscles alittle.. anyone else expect these initially completely irrelevant and puny faeries to end up as moderately heavy hitters in dresden's arsenal?

We already saw that in Changes when the Guard showed up wearing Winter's colors, when Harry joined Mab, he took the Wee Folk with him.

[JinElusion]

Did anyone ever think that the flashback memories were about Elaine also and not just He Who Walks Behind?  She was a significant person in Harry's life.  The only reason they did not look back at that those feelings was because Susan was in the picture.  What is to stop it now?  Maybe that is why Harry/Molly feels forced.

I didnt really think about it at the time really. All i thought about as far Elaine went was that Harry must have been really distraught not to notice how WEIRD Elaine looked and acted. Maybe the insight will wash some of that betrayal feeling away.

[novaseaker]

On the subject of Mab lying and Uriel confirming it:

Mab is not lying, Uriel is.

Harry confirms that Mab is absolutely capable of changing him. He just makes her realize that doing so is not without consequences, that the very wiles and guilefullness that leads him to defy her are the very qualities that makes her want him as her Knight in the first place.

Uriel is lying when he says Mab can't change him, and Harry knows he's lying. But the truth of his seven words is irellevant. They are encouraging, and they let Harry realize he can still fight becominng a monster, even beholden to Mab.

Uriel has to balance the scales against the shadow' lie. The shadows lie clouded Harry's ability to choose to keewp fighting, to never give up. Uriel's lie let Harry see that there were options. (IE that even though Mab definately could change him, he also could definately convince her not to.)