Fae Knights and Sponsored Magic

[The Happy Anarchist]

One of the advantages of Sponsored Magic is the ability to take on debts that bring on compels in order to do things like invoke aspects or deal with stress and so forth.  The downsides of doing so are pretty apparent for things like Hellfire and the like.  However, when it comes to being a Knight of the Courts, what is the difference?  Can't they compel you to do whatever they like, whenever they like anyways? 

Obviously not something you want to overdo, both for fiction reasons and for ensuring players have a good experience.  It just seems like a
big part of being the Summer or Winter Knight is that the Ladies of the Courts can force you to do their will already.  What is the point of debt for them?  It doesn't give them any additional control over the Knights that they don't already have.

[Chris_Fougere]

We have a winter knight in our game.  The Winter Knight Aspect gets compelled like any other (ie can be bought off) but the debt he's racked up gets used and not only doesn't net him Fate Points but also cannot be bought off.

Example - Mab wants him to muck about in the White Court's business and his Winter Knight Aspect is compelled.  He really, really doesn't want to and buys off the Compel.  Having him do this is something Mab really, really needs.  So she calls in some of the debt he's earned for the Winter Court aiding his magic.  This Compel cannot be bought off nor does it earn him a Fate Point.  So he's doing it anyway, because Mab owns him.

[UmbraLux]

One of the advantages of Sponsored Magic is the ability to take on debts that bring on compels in order to do things like invoke aspects or deal with stress and so forth.  The downsides of doing so are pretty apparent for things like Hellfire and the like.  However, when it comes to being a Knight of the Courts, what is the difference?  Can't they compel you to do whatever they like, whenever they like anyways?  

Obviously not something you want to overdo, both for fiction reasons and for ensuring players have a good experience.  It just seems like a big part of being the Summer or Winter Knight is that the Ladies of the Courts can force you to do their will already.  What is the point of debt for them?  It doesn't give them any additional control over the Knights that they don't already have.

Using sponsored magic doesn't give the sponsor more powerful compels (they can still be bought off - see the sidebar on YS288) but it does give the sponsor a greater number of compels and, perhaps more importantly, doesn't give the sponsoree fate points when being compelled.  He's already gained the benefit / fate when he took on the debt.  

So taking on debt means the possible loss of either choice (accepting the compel) or fate points (resisting the compel) for a benefit now (the spell being cast) but no benefit later (no fate earned by accepting the compel).  As for the sponsor, it's a method of influencing the world (through accepted compels) and gaining power (fate from resisted compels) for something you don't mind doing anyway (the spell has to align with the sponsor's agenda).  Basically, a win - win situation for the sponsor.  

Oh, and welcome to the forums!

[The Happy Anarchist]

Oh yeah, I get that part of Sponsored Magic.  That part makes sense to me.

However, one of the bits of the books is that the Ladies can force the Knights to do something.  That is beyond accounting for the Debt/Sponsored Magic aspect of things, they can just out and out order a Knight to do something and they have to do it. 

So the thing that confuses me is what does debt do that having the Knight aspect be compelled doesn't?  Is it just that they don't get Fate Points for being compelled on a debt rather than the aspect itself?

[Masurao]

It isn't as simple as a Queen or Lady telling the Knight what to do.

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If you read Small Favour, you find out that Fix isn't willfully going after Harry, he is even warning him as best he can, as he is under a geas and not allowed to directly tell him certain things.

They have manners of forcing Knights to do their bidding, against which there is no resisting, but mechanics-wise it isn't the same as a compel.

[The Happy Anarchist]

That is exactly what I meant.  Also

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When Ebenezer tells Harry that Mab can force him to do evil, but can't force him to choose to do evil or something of the like.

Would that be something more like one of them using Summer/Winter magic to lay down a gobsmack of a Gaes using thaumaturgy, perhaps at evocation speed?  Would it just be a social attack with so much tagged and invoked aspects it was irresistable?  How would you lay that out.  I love the idea of debt for power and it works great, even for Summer/Winter magic but if the Fae Ladies can already force the Knights to do what they want then it sort of drops some of the impact of debt.  That said, being compelled in individual cases with no fate gain could be a bad enough consequence as it is.

[EdgeOfDreams]

I think one advantage debt gives to the Queens is that they don't even have to try to get you to do what they want if you've got debt. They just call in the debt.  If you're not in debt, then they at least have to put in some effort (however miniscule) to convince, coerce, or compel you to obey them.

[UmbraLux]

The Knights are mortals and retain mortal choice / freedom of will.  That's a big part of why the courts grant power to a Knight - he can act more freely than the fae.  That said, there are two limits on the Knights' freedom:  compels and their bargain. 

Compels do limit choice - there's a cost to resisting them.  However bargains are, potentially, a greater limit.  While nothing prevents bargainers from breaking the bargain (as Harry did) doing so give the fae sponsor more power over the bargainer.  Break it often enough (and fail to run fast enough) and you may end up a leashed hound with no more freedom of will...so there is a certain incentive to keep the bargain.  That said, any bargains are left up to the group.  I don't believe there is any mechanics wrapped around them.