The deal with making stuff (especially magic stuff)

[Roskey]

Well, is it just me, or are the rules really vague with how creating stuff and possessions work?

My character concept is a magical madcap inventor with runty magic in an overbearing family of wizards, a focused practitioner with ritual (crafting) and channeling (telekinesis). Aspects like "science, %#&$ yeah" and that sort of thing, with high lore and craftsmanship for skills but lowish conviction and discipline (for other spellcasters, anyway). I was trying to make a stunt that extended craftsmanship to be used to make minor magical objects but... how does thaumaturgy with crafting work, exactly? All it really seems to say in the book is that it is used to make potions, enchanted items, and focus items, but channeling/evocation seem to give focus item slots too, and presumably they can be filled even if you don't have thaumaturgy at all. What's the deal here? And what do you guys think would be the best ways to make this magical-scienceish inventor work?

[devonapple]

They are somewhat vague. We've made threads on how summoning/creating magical things should generally work. However, part of the vagueness is intentional on the part of the game designers: the narrative impact of making a chainsaw gun using your Craftsmanship skill, or a stone golem using Thaumaturgy, is going to vary between gaming tables - and maybe even between sessions in the same campaign - so it is intentionally on the players and GM/referee to agree on how to do a particular thing.

A lot of us are used to incredibly detailed point-based systems (like HERO) or systems which aren't necessarily (or transparently) point-balanced but are fairly codified (like D&D). And as such, it can be a challenge to come to such a free-form system like this and try to negotiate balance, but that is the strength as well as the challenge.

So, to your Thaumaturgy question: There are 2-4 ways to acquire items and/or personnel in this game.

Resources: I buy the item. Player outlines what it does. GM establishes a Quality which becomes the difficulty to acquire the item. You could use it to justify buying the services of personnel, and again, the GM establishes a Quality to that transaction.

Craftsmanship: I make the item. Player outlines what it does. GM establishes a Quality which becomes the difficulty to make the item. You sort of need Resources or a Stunt reflecting your workshop in order to make it, or you can borrow someone else's Resources to get it. Not easy to justify acquiring personnel. Edited to add: Unless you have a Stunt saying you can make mechanical personnel, which would be basically using Craftsmanship instead of Resources/Contacts.

Contacts: For getting personnel, this is the best skill - again, the GM establishes a Quality to that transaction, which becomes the difficulty of the roll. For getting items, it could also be feasible to say that you get the item from someone. Player outlines what it does. GM establishes a Quality which becomes the difficulty to find someone who can get you the item.

Thaumaturgy: You make a magical substitute for an item or personnel. Player outlines what it does. GM establishes a Quality which becomes the number of Shifts the spellcaster must summon and control to make the item or summon the magical being which will end up doing the job you want. In the book, Summoning is referred to as simply a magical Contacts roll. Item creation could be a magical Resources or Craftsmanship roll.

Ultimately, Thaumaturgy can do anything any other skill can do.

[Roskey]

Huh, I see. That makes sense. What about those workshops though, they're a stunt? I thought it would be like, a place or just a feature of an appropriate aspect/high concept with the standard "stock" equal to the base resources...

[devonapple]

Huh, I see. That makes sense. What about those workshops though, they're a stunt? I thought it would be like, a place or just a feature of an appropriate aspect/high concept with the standard "stock" equal to the base resources...

Workshops are sort of a blind spot for me, but I think you automatically get one type of your choice, at the level of your Resources:
- Workshop for Craftsmanship
- Occult Library for Lore
- Magical Workshop for Thaumaturgy

If you want more types, or a better Workshop, you use a Resources Stunt which I think is in the book, or you make another Stunt, or you have to make rolls to temporarily boost your effective Workshop with Aspects.

Someone who is more experienced with them is free to correct me.

[sinker]

Something else to consider is that possessions are usually handled by expectations, so if you have a high guns skill you can be expected to have a good gun or two (or five). In the case of your character I'd look at Mundane effects on YS259 and see if you can't translate that into little gadgets for your character. You can also make declarations with your lore skill that represent gadgets helping you out, and I'm sure you could invoke your high concept for effect to come up with something minor.

Most of your big guns are going to be enchanted items though. And of note, Fred has said that if you don't have crafting it's assumed that you've figured it out enough to make your items initially (or someone made them for you) but then can't change them during play, because you can't make anything else (unless you have a decent excuse, like learning to craft, or getting someone to make them).

[Set Abominae]

Workshops are sort of a blind spot for me, but I think you automatically get one type of your choice, at the level of your Resources:
- Workshop for Craftsmanship
- Occult Library for Lore
- Magical Workshop for Thaumaturgy

If you want more types, or a better Workshop, you use a Resources Stunt which I think is in the book, or you make another Stunt, or you have to make rolls to temporarily boost your effective Workshop with Aspects.

Someone who is more experienced with them is free to correct me.

That's probably pretty accurate, and got me to thinking that the quality of the workshop probably acts as a restricting/complimenting factor on any skill uses in conjunction with that workshop. Meaning you can get better results from working/studying in a better shop than you can in a poorly furbished one. As per page 213-214.

Pages 139-140 and page 320 cover it in more detail, but for fast reference I just look at the workshop in the manner I mentioned above.

[UmbraLux]

Well, is it just me, or are the rules really vague with how creating stuff and possessions work?

Not sure vague is the correct term, however they're certainly different from traditional game systems!   

Remember - the rules aren't really intended to simulate a world.  Consequently, you don't get a flat bonus for having <insert item here>.  Instead, the rules are aimed at building cooperative narratives. 

Consequently, the rules really don't encourage acquiring big piles of items or making lists of what you have available.  Instead, you simply make the appropriate declaration when it matters to the narrative.  Need a forge to repair a weapon right now?  Roll resources if you figure you'd have purchased one or possibly contacts if you know someone with a forge you can use - whatever is appropriate.  If you're successful you have it (or have access) and can work the details of exactly how into the narrative.  If unsuccessful, you either move on without it (try to repair without the bonus or just don't get the repair done) or figure another way to get what you need. 

Regarding your magical inventor, I'd look at the "potion" rules.  (Potions are any single use item, not necessarily something you drink.)  As long as you have open potion spots, you can declare what one is via a lore declaration.  Any of your quick single use use thaumaturgy items could be declared the same way.  You could work out similar rules for scholarship if you want a more science based MacGuiver.

That makes sense. What about those workshops though, they're a stunt? I thought it would be like, a place or just a feature of an appropriate aspect/high concept with the standard "stock" equal to the base resources...

They could be a stunt but a Resources declaration is just as good and, probably, easier.  Remember, mechanically the workshop is an aspect which will give you a bonus when using it to create an item.  As a declaration you get a free tag.  As for the narrative, you probably have access to the workshop most of the time (you may own it), the declaration determines whether it has everything you need to gain that aspect / bonus.

[Roskey]

Regarding your magical inventor, I'd look at the "potion" rules.  (Potions are any single use item, not necessarily something you drink.)  As long as you have open potion spots, you can declare what one is via a lore declaration.  Any of your quick single use use thaumaturgy items could be declared the same way.  You could work out similar rules for scholarship if you want a more science based MacGuiver.
They could be a stunt but a Resources declaration is just as good and, probably, easier.  Remember, mechanically the workshop is an aspect which will give you a bonus when using it to create an item.  As a declaration you get a free tag.  As for the narrative, you probably have access to the workshop most of the time (you may own it), the declaration determines whether it has everything you need to gain that aspect / bonus.

Oooooooh, this is a very good idea. Thanks a lot! I never thought of that potion thing, very neat.

[devonapple]

Potions are actually very flexible, and can simulate a variety of "disposable" effects.

[Arcteryx]

So is Lore the only skill that matters when making Enchanted Items?

The RAW has a preamble on not wanting to waste a lot of book-keeping effort on chasing down the details, it wouldn't surprise me that the the rules are that simple, but I want to make sure I haven't read anything wrong in translation.

Also, where Enchanted Items are concerned, I continue to be puzzled about the workshop, its possible relationship with Craftsmanship, and Resources (which ultimately dictate on buffed that workshop is or can be)

[UmbraLux]

So is Lore the only skill that matters when making Enchanted Items?

Yes and no.  While Lore is all that is needed to a point, other skills may be used as maneuvers or declarations (if thematically appropriate of course) to gain tag-able aspects for a better end result.

[Arcteryx]

Yes and no.  While Lore is all that is needed to a point, other skills may be used as maneuvers or declarations (if thematically appropriate of course) to gain tag-able aspects for a better end result.

Could you throw a couple of examples out there? I think I have the gist but I do better with a concrete example Thanks for taking the trouble...

[UmbraLux]

Could you throw a couple of examples out there? I think I have the gist but I do better with a concrete example Thanks for taking the trouble...

The basic steps for any thaumaturgy spell, including potions are:

1. Determine the desired spell effect.
2. Determine complexity in shifts.

• If complexity <= Lore, you have everything needed, go to drawing power.
• If complexity > Lore, enter Preparation stage.

3. Prepare ritual.
4. Draw power – roll Discipline to control power drawn each round. The spell is cast when you meet the number of shifts required by the spell's complexity.  

The preparation stage is where you set up aspects (among other things) by assessment, declaration, or maneuver.  

So, say you want to create a potion of strength, fairly simple except you want it to give you the option of either unloading an immense amount of strength at once or use a lesser amount for a longer period of time.  Mechanically, you want three 'sticky' strength related maneuvers - so 12 shifts.  Let's call Lore 5 for example purposes, that mean you need 7 additional shifts from something...we'll count on +1 from the die (which may not always be a good idea) which leaves needing 6 shifts - three aspects.  

First I'll go purchase (Resources maneuver) Shavings from a Girevik Champion's Kettlebell and then I'll gather a pint of Sweat from Strengthening Exercises by using the kettlebell for a hundred clean and jerks (either Might or Endurance maneuver).  Finally, I'll make the Discipline declaration that I'm Concentrating on the Rune for Strength while drawing power for my potion.  Now I can complete my potion (assuming the dice give me the +1 I need) which gives me A Girevik's Strength, Iron Thews, and Runic Strength.  After drinking the potion, I'll have anything from three consecutive +2 to a single +6 strength related bonus.

So my strength potion used four skills.  It was limited by Lore and enhanced by Resources, Might, and Discipline.

[Arcteryx]

OK, thanks - I understood your example, but I didn't think you were allowed to have enchanted items with a strength of effect that was greater than your Lore rating.

YS279: Nearly any effect within the range of thaumaturgy or evocation is allowed (though evocation tends to be easier because the amount of power involved is usually comparatively small), subject to two limitations:

a. the effect has a strength equal to your Lore, and
b. it may only be used once per game session.

That's what the other slots are for - increasing strength or frequency, and what crafting specializations allow?

[InFerrumVeritas]

OK, thanks - I understood your example, but I didn't think you were allowed to have enchanted items with a strength of effect that was greater than your Lore rating.

YS279: Nearly any effect within the range of thaumaturgy or evocation is allowed (though evocation tends to be easier because the amount of power involved is usually comparatively small), subject to two limitations:

a. the effect has a strength equal to your Lore, and
b. it may only be used once per game session.

That's what the other slots are for - increasing strength or frequency, and what crafting specializations allow?

You are absolutely correct.  One exception:

Unlike a normal enchanted item, the effect strength of the potion may be boosted on the fly or at the time it is created with the invocation of aspects. Each invocation allows the potion’s strength to be increased by 2. You may choose to take a compel in order to get this bonus for free, but that means the GM can introduce that compel at any time later without giving you the opportunity to refuse—you’ve already agreed to it by taking the additional strength for the potion. In general, only one such “pay-it-forward" compel should be allowed at a time.

So, let's say I'm making a potion that makes me more alert, placing the aspect "Enhanced Senses" (or, more interestingly, "Animal Senses").  That's my effect.  I determine the complexity (for placing an aspect, 3 shifts).  I've got a base lore of Great, so no problem.  However, I want more uses out of it.  I make a burglary declaration that I've stolen fur from a bat at the zoo.  Cool, now I've got 6 shifts available, enough to place two aspects.  I ask the GM if it's okay to just have two free tags on the original aspect and he says sure. 

Alternatively, let's say I'm about to throwdown with a powerful warlock.  From a previous encounter with this nasty, I've got a severe mental consequence.  I want to suppress this so that the baddie can't use it against me.  I know my great lore allows me to make the Stimulant potion (YS304) but it won't be enough to suppress the severe consequence.  I ask my GM if he'll give me a compel later so I can boost the strength of the potion.  He agrees.  I make a Lore declaration to have the potion (filling an open slot that I left just for this).  I now have the potion capable of suppressing 6 shifts worth of consequences (with the nice bonus of reducing the stress it takes to cast too).  I down it and head to the fight.  During the fight, the GM says "You know, with all the adrenaline pumping, maybe taking a super strong stimulant was a bad idea.  You're getting some pretty bad chest pains.  They cause you to lose control over that fireball spell you just cast.  Instead of hitting Evil McWarlock, the gout of flame goes in all directions and lights the building on fire.  This is the open compel from your potion."