What a Black Court Elder might look like...

[vultur]

High Concept: Elder of the Black Court
Other Aspects: Feared By All

Skills (human form: may be different in bat or wolf shapes)
Fantastic (+6): Fists
Superb (+5): Discipline, Endurance
Great (+4): Athletics, Lore, Intimidation
Good (+3): Alertness, Conviction, Presence, Stealth
Fair (+2): Burglary, Deceit, Investigation, Might, Weapons
Other skills default to Average.

Powers
Claws [–1]
Echoes of the Beast [–1] (bat or wolf - depends on individual)
Living Dead [–1]
Mythic Toughness [–6]
The Catch [+3] is Bram Stoker style weaknesses.
Blood Drinker [–1]
Feeding Dependency [+1] affecting the following powers:
  Beast Change [–1] (bat or wolf - depends on individual)
  Cloak of Shadows [–1]
  Mythic Strength [–6]
  Supernatural Speed [–4]
  Domination (Master Dominator; Quick Dominator) [–5] (Quick Dominator adds +4 rather than +2 to stress inflicted)
  Gaseous Form [-3]

Stress:
Mental OOOO
Physical OOOO(OOOOOO), Armor:3, +1 mild consequence
Social OOOO

Total Refresh Cost: -26

Notes: This vampire has horrific mind control capability (effectively mental Weapon:4), Weapon:8 claws and, without the Catch, ridiculous toughness.

For all that, this is still a "low-end" Elder, limited to vampire powers only. More powerful ones will have true spellcasting as well.

[Belial666]

First of all, where do you get the spellcasting rotes and items from? I don't see any spellcasting there at all.

Secondly, -26 refresh isn't that terrifying in the grand scale of things. Harry Dresden was -18 pre-Changes and around -30 once he took up the mantle. The Scarecrow was in the -19 to -26 range. Big hitters are certainly beyond that; Ebenezar made a -30 refresh Harry look like a mere apprentice magic-wise and he's a lot younger and probably not as powerful as Lea, Eldest Gruff and other serious powers.

[JustinS]

Needs supernatural or mythic Recovery.

I don't see the Fists/Mythic Strength build being a caster, but for a caster, I can more see Sponsored Necromancy instead.

For a more generic BCVE I'd suggest Deceit or Intimidation as an apex skill. Also, Resources are likely popular for Elder anything.

[vultur]

First of all, where do you get the spellcasting rotes and items from? I don't see any spellcasting there at all.

By mistake. I was trying to write two versions and got my copy & paste mixed up.

Secondly, -26 refresh isn't that terrifying in the grand scale of things.

Depends how you scale things.

The OW stats have the Faerie Ladies at about -15 and the Senior Council at -16 to -19. But since Harry is about that powerful as of SmF (given the advancement listed in his writeup he should be -15 as of end of SmF) this is not right. I say about -21 for Luccio, Senior Council is ... I think, -28 to -32 (I ought to post those sometime...). Black Court elders are, IMO, about Senior Council level - so -26 for "low end" Elder seems about right to me.

Harry Dresden was -18 pre-Changes and around -30 once he took up the mantle.

That seems high.

OW lists 6 major milestones for him up to SmF; TC ought to count as one. Since he started Submerged, he's at 17 base refresh pre-Changes; he usually stays with just one free refresh, according to the same writeup, so he's -16 pre-Changes.

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Winter Knight's "musts" are Marked By Power and Unseelie Magic

; since Harry already has full Evocation and Thaumaturgy, that adds up to -3 more. But he also gets a physical boost: I'd say Inhuman Speed and Toughness [with a +1 Catch], for -3 more. -1, also, for

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his mother's gem/power.

So, -23. If he got a full suite of Inhumans (which I don't recall evidence of), -27, but I couldn't push it past that.

And I don't think a Black Court Elder would be utterly out of

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WK-Harry

's league. -23 for him vs. -26 for the "low-end" Elder, again, sounds right.

If you have the Senior Council at -40 or more, though, you'll want the "low end" Elder in the mid-30s. Again, depends how you scale things.
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[Belial666]

Harry is at -17 to -18 refresh pre-changes. -1 for mother's gem, -1 for marked by power, -2 for unseelie magic, -2 for at least inhuman strength (kicks aside vamps with one blow), -2 for inhuman toughness minimum (resists blows from a Devourer), -2 inhuman speed (keeps up with Suzan, outruns the Devourer), -2 inhuman recovery (generally recovers faster than normal)


That's -30 for him after taking the WK mantle. And he is still obviously outclassed by Lea, Ebenezar, the Red King, and presumably the rest of the Senior Council, Eldest Gruff and people like that.

[tymire]

Actually he probably has at least superhuman strength after taking the mantle.  

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Remember he was actually wrestling and winning against the Red King before the finger icicles of death.  Hmm this also could have been judious uses of a couple fate points.

[vultur]

Actually he probably has at least superhuman strength after taking the mantle.  

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Remember he was actually wrestling and winning against the Red King before the finger icicles of death.  Hmm this also could have been judious uses of a couple fate points.

I don't think the Knight of a Faerie Court template allows above Inhuman, so yeah, probably Fate Points.

[vultur]

Harry is at -17 to -18 refresh pre-changes.

How do you get that?

According to his OW writeup, he's a starting Submerged character post-Storm-Front. FM, GP, DM, BR, WN, and SmF are Major Milestones. So he's at 16 base refresh as of the beginning of TC. If we assume TC is a Major Milestone (as it should be, with the Skinwalker, challenging the SC, and proving better planning/strategizing skills), he's at 17 base refresh at the beginning of Changes -- so his refresh cost has to be -16 or less to be a viable PC. (And it would be either -15 or -16: judging by the OW advancement writeup, 3 Refinements and Soulfire are already accounted for.)

Assuming

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his mother's gem

is an Item of Power with Worldwalker, it'd be -1. (It could also be treated as a Focus Item with bonuses to Transportation/Worldwalking thaumaturgy, though.)

-1 more for Marked By Power.

-2 for

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Unseelie Magic.

-2 for Inhuman Speed.

-2 for Inhuman Strength (maybe. Have to re-read to see if I think he gets that. Kicking vamps aside isn't necessarily Inhuman for a man Harry's size -- they may be superhumanly strong, but they don't weigh any more. I'm sure he gets some strength boost, in story, as part of the general physical improvement; I'm just not convinced it's major enough to qualify for Inhuman Strength in game terms.)

-2 for Inhuman Toughness, but

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Faerie Knights

have a +1 Catch on their Toughness powers, so only -1.

I don't remember Recovery (Toughness, yes...) but again, I'll re-read. If he does get it, then -2 more.

-6 to -11 for Changes, thus totaling -22 to -27. I still can't get above -27 even with the most liberal use of the

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WK Mantle

.

That's -30 for him after taking the WK mantle. And he is still obviously outclassed by Lea, Ebenezar, the Red King, and presumably the rest of the Senior Council, Eldest Gruff and people like that.

Well, Lea is well above Senior Council, and the Red King is practically a god. Eldest Gruff has (presumably) killed 3 SC members -- I'd say he's above SC level too, maybe even Lea level ultrapowerful. If they could be statted at all, all those guys ought to be -40 Refresh or more.

He's outclassed by Ebenezar with his super Blackstaff stuff; I'm not sure he isn't up to what we see Ebenezar do in TC, which frankly isn't all that impressive compared to his Changes performance or Krakatoa/Tunguska/etc. - he is worried about getting swarmed by 100-some minor mooks while accompanied by 2-3 other SC members and Warden backup. He binds Lara, sure, but Harry might well be able to do that now; he throws one of Binder's minions super far, but Harry did a similar thing to Thorned Namshiel with Soulfire in SmF.

Jim suggested Harry might be a match for Cowl during Changes, and I see no evidence Cowl is below SC level. So I'm not at all convinced

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WK-Harry

*is* "obviously outclassed" by the Senior Council.


---

More directly relevant, however:

What else would you give an Elder? This guy has Mythic Strength and Toughness; he has all the regular BCV powers plus an extra upgrade I made up.

Mythic Speed seems inappropriate because it would make mortals hitting him pretty much impossible (even Supernatural is stretching it -- a lot of Elders, the spellcasting ones with less physical focus, are probably only Inhuman Speed) - BCVs, even Elders, are supposed to be pretty dependent on their Toughness; that's why their Catch becoming common knowledge was so nasty.

Recovery of any sort seems incompatible with Living Dead, and Black Court Masters don't get any Recovery.

Spellcasting, sure... but given what's said about Mavra I think it's pretty unusual for the Black Court ... a spellcaster Elder was going to be a separate set of stats.

[Belial666]

@Harry:
I get that because he has the following pre-changes;
[-1] Listening
[-7] Wizard Template
[-1] Lawbreaker 1st
[-3] Soulfire
[-2] Refinement for specializations (fire control/power +1, item power +2)
[-4] Refinement for items; improved bracelet (2 focus slots), staff (1 focus slot), improved blasting rod (2 focus slots), duster (1 item slot) improved rings (3 item slots), 3 potion slots, little chicago (at least 4 focus slots, gets bonuses for size/specialization)

There is no way you can build him at anything less than that. I've tried. One could even argue his ties to Demonreach cost another -1. And then you add another -9 to -11 (depending on whether he has recovery) for Changes.
PS: _{yes, he specifically mentions how he uses increased strength to mow down vampires with a kick.}




@BCV Elders:
Elders aren't made dangerous from their base powers as vampires just like Senior-Council wizards aren't made dangerous simply because they have the wizard template. It is all the added knowledge, training and refinement over centuries that makes a difference, plus enough experience to use those powers better;


1) Elders are those vampires that had advantages to begin with in order to survive over their fellows;
Just having vampire powers means you are entirely untrained other than your nature. A spellcaster turned vampire retains spellcasting powers - like Mavra. A powerful mortal warrior or warlord turned vampire would also keep those skills and stunts. Yes, a vampire with spellcasting powers or other exceptional skills is rare. But if an Elder is one vampire out of a thousand, that does satisfy rarity and following simple survival of the fittest means that Elders will become precisely those that do have said advantages. And those are just 2 examples of what they were pre-vampirism.

2) Elders had centuries or millennia to develop more than just physical powers and seem to be more resistant to physical dangers too:
A less succeptible catch (dracula could walk in daylight and a stake merely kept him sleeping). Levitation. Telekinesis. Weather control. Shapeshifting. An improved Domination ability. All those are examples of potential powers.

3) Elders had centuries or millennia to hone their skills:
Simply put, an Elder that had an exceptional skill as a human or new vampire is going to have moved beyond what the most talented, most well-trained humans could have. They don't suffer any degradation from old age and they accumulate experience practically forever. An Elder that was once a monarch and diplomat would know so much of the world by now and have his fingers in so many pies that his contacts and resources would be epic. An Elder warrior using his combat skills one hour per week for a thousand years would be the equivalent of a mortal using them for over a dozen hours per day for decades. Ditto for an Elder practicing magic or exercizing his mental skills. And that's beside Knowledge skills which would be constantly improving passively.
Thus Elders probably have a lot of skills in the Fantastic-Epic range.



So Elders are scary due to a combination of great vampire powers + powers/stunts gained over the ages + skills trained over millennia + ridiculous amounts of experience. Here's an example;

Magog's host has Mythic Strength, Claws and Great fists. He's a credible threat at w8, attack +4.

An Elder has Mythic ST, Claws, Echoes of the Beast and Blood Drinker for melee powers, Brawler (attack stunt) and A Millennium's Fighting Experience (equivalent to martial artist) for stunts, and Epic Fists and Fantastic Alertness for combat skills. He's a terrifying threat because he might still be w8 but he attacks at +7 base, +1 stunt, +1 power, and doing at least 2 declarations as a free action, for a total of w8, attack +13.
The Elder could casually reach out and rip Magog's head off his shoulders with a fairly average roll. And that's for an Elder with merely 2 stunts carried over from his mortal years or gained through great experience. An Elder that was around Submerged before going vampire and has improved her skills since could take on the entire Denarian throng and win - easily.

[Silverblaze]

While I know we must take examples from fiction as cannon and must design NPC's accordingly...

Mr. Jim Butcher likely doesn't write his novels to easily convert into a tabletop RPG.  The stories and acts in them do not have to create anything possible by system, let alone be balanced or easy to explain.

That said I'm hazarding caution when making giant -# refresh critters ; just because in a novel it was done.  Such narratives are for enjoyment, not for easy conversion.

[vultur]

I think you are over-estimating the intended power level of the Elders somewhat. It was supposed to take 30-some of them to be  a match for Mab, so they don't strike me as at the Lea/Eldest Gruff/Archive level of ultra-ridiculous, which you'd have to be at to take down all the Denarians at once (and I'm not sure they could -- at least, they'd be at great risk.)

The 30-some Elders are going to be at about the level of the whole White Council; if you assume 20% of the fighting power of the WC is in the Senior Council (which it probably is, given the Merlin's army-blocking ward and the sort of stuff we've seen Eb do, compared to -say- Morgan or Luccio, who are *highly exceptional* combat wizards themselves) - then Elders should be roughly Senior Council level.

[Belial666]

Mab has enough power to make major storms, control the climate and her voice alone can break even powerful wizards. Major storms are equivalent to nukes. Also, there are many hundreds, if not thousands, full wizards in the Council, and there used to be over 200 wardens. If 30 Elders match the White Council, that means on average an Elder should be on par with thirty wizards at once, six of them highly trained combat specialists.


I don't think I am overstating their power. No way can someone under 40 refresh take on thirty submerged characters in combat. Especially wizards which can bring down small buildings if they unleash a major spell (Harry burned Bianka's place to the ground, for example)

[vultur]

Mab has enough power to make major storms, control the climate and her voice alone can break even powerful wizards. Major storms are equivalent to nukes.

Eb did Krakatoa and Tunguska. Tunguska was 10-20 MT; Krakatoa was 200 MT. The largest nuke ever tested was 50 MT.

So ... yes, but that doesn't change my idea about where she stands relative to other potent DV beings.
 
(Also, a being's ability to do large-scale stuff doesn't necessarily correlate directly to their ability in a close-in, right-now fight. Aurora probably had a lot of climate-influencing, large-scale-magic type of power, but she wasn't all that tough -- yeah, cold iron and all that, but Harry actually held her down.)

Also, there are many hundreds, if not thousands, full wizards in the Council,

Somewhere in the neighborhood of 5000.

If 30 Elders match the White Council, that means on average an Elder should be on par with thirty wizards at once, six of them highly trained combat specialists.

Yeah. But I think power gets exponential in the Dresdenverse. The Merlin stopped an army with a ward -- probably a significant portion of the Red Court's military strength. Eb can blow up cities with time and prep, and kill 200 men with a couple casual waves of his staff.

I don't think I am overstating their power. No way can someone under 40 refresh take on thirty submerged characters in combat. Especially wizards which can bring down small buildings if they unleash a major spell (Harry burned Bianka's place to the ground, for example)

I think this is a novels-game mechanics divide. The Senior Council, with any reasonable game stats, couldn't either. But given some of the things Eb can do, I wouldn't be surprised if they really *should* be that powerful.

Anyway.... as I said, this is a low-end Elder. I'll post a high end one next.

[Sanctaphrax]

I generally agree with Belial here.

Also, I don't think that super-high refresh is a problem. It doesn't make a character unusable.

I'd prefer to see Black Court Elders not focus on physical violence. If I was immortal, evil, strong enough to walk through a stone wall, and tough enough to shrug off artillery fire, I wouldn't bother learning martial arts. I'd just let my strength and toughness protect me while I focused on money (Resources), power (Contacts), mindbending, and magic.

So that's what I'd like to see Black Court Elders do. This has the added advantage of making these guys gankable.

There's been a lot of talk about this topic lately. Give me a moment and I'll get some links.

[Sanctaphrax]

Blowing up a city: a few hundred shifts of transformation and disruption thaumaturgy.
Stopping an army: 30 shifts of warding thaumaturgy.
Killing 200 men: 16 shift spirit evocation, targeting 5 zones.

Being on the Senior Council: priceless.

All doable at 30-40 refresh.

Link 1: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,27135.0.html
Link 2: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,27100.0.html