First verses Third

[parthagenon]

Depending on the subject, long infodumps and gratuitous exposition can actually be pretty interesting.  But then again, I'm the type of reader that wonders whether or not a Dune shield would explode if you threw a lightsaber at it, so...

On "show, don't tell", if it's not important, give it a quick description and move on.  If it's vitally important, or the POV character happens to be paying very close attention for some reason, go ahead and stuff all the nuances you can into the description.  If every paragraph of a novel is like the first example, I'd get tired pretty quickly.  I'd say save it for the details that need it.

[newtinmpls]

"I'm the type of reader that wonders whether or not a Dune shield would explode if you threw a lightsaber at it, so..."

I would think yes on that.

"Depending on the subject, long infodumps and gratuitous exposition can actually be pretty interesting."

Depends on a lot. My best friend and I both like Heinlein (probably spelled wrong); had very different reactions to Number of the Beast, both because of the long, detailed, internal and external monologues about leadership. I read the book multiple times just to dwell on them, he couldn't even get past the first quarter of it.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

On "show, don't tell", if it's not important, give it a quick description and move on.  If it's vitally important, or the POV character happens to be paying very close attention for some reason, go ahead and stuff all the nuances you can into the description.

The failure mode of that is giving away what's going to be important later on and what isn't way too obviously early in the book.

[newtinmpls]

On "show, don't tell", if it's not important, give it a quick description and move on.  If it's vitally important, or the POV character happens to be paying very close attention for some reason, go ahead and stuff all the nuances you can into the description.

and it was wisely pointed out:

The failure mode of that is giving away what's going to be important later on and what isn't way too obviously early in the book.

I agree, that's an easy pitfall, which is one reason I think it works better as a style than as a tool, if you can get what I mean.

[Bearracuda]

On "show, don't tell", if it's not important, give it a quick description and move on.  If it's vitally important, or the POV character happens to be paying very close attention for some reason, go ahead and stuff all the nuances you can into the description.

and it was wisely pointed out:

The failure mode of that is giving away what's going to be important later on and what isn't way too obviously early in the book.

I agree, that's an easy pitfall, which is one reason I think it works better as a style than as a tool, if you can get what I mean.

There are piles and piles of information that people are going to get from descriptions, they're not going to pay attention to all of it.  Probably very little.  So it's good to get those details out there, especially if they are allusions or foreshadowing.  The trick is that you have to display them in the way that the character's going to notice them.  Because the character's going to shrug them off now and later on that piece of the puzzle is gonna click into place in his head and you'll get that golden "oh shit" moment where time slows down and he catches what's wrong.  You need to make the detail sound neglible now and be important later. 

Take, for example, the mindfog in Summer Knight.  At the time, Dresden just kind of acknowledged the fact that it was illegal sorcery, and started trying to deal with the situation.  But those 2 words in themselves play a very important role in figuring out who his opponent is.  He was facing a wizard, and one not sanctioned by the white council.  Sure, faeries can do magic, but they tend to have very different methods and means by which they operate, so if it was faerie magic, he probably would have called it just that: Faerie Magic.  He specifically said "illegal" though, which points to a form of magic which is moderated by a body of law.  The white council is the only body of law that governs the use of magics.  (The accords don't count.  They help to round things out, but the accords are more of a treaty than a form of government itself)  Given what he had to draw on so far from that book, the only wizard unsanctioned by the white council in the area was Elaine.  So, we could technically have parsed out from that point in the book that Elaine was playing both sides of the field, and this does come into play later, when Dresden realizes he's been betrayed by her.  He remembers the mindfog.

This is a very difficult technique to perfect.  You want to get those details out there.  You want the reader to acknowledge them.  You want the character to acknowledge them.  And you want them both to shrug it off for now.  I suppose you could technically try making those details more obvious, but then your character has to be an idiot to not notice them, and the reader's not an idiot.  He's gonna be sitting there screaming inside his head, "WHY ARE YOU IGNORING THAT YOU FOUND YOUR DEAD BUDDY'S DOGTAGS IN YOUR GIRLFRIEND'S PURSE!?!?!?!  ARE YOU STUPID!?"  So I suppose on this particular subject, we ought take Jim's advice: The reader's not an idiot.  Get the information out there and let the reader find it.  Your readers are always going to be smarter than you expect.  They'll notice.  (I don't remember where I saw him say that, but I am VERY sure I saw him say it... somewhere)

[Mishell]

I ask myself, is this story being told by me, or by my character?  If it's the latter, I use first person.

Once I had to use first person in a short story because there was no appropriate gender pronoun to use for the main character in 3rd.   

[Nickeris86]

Well I had both versions of my opening reviewed and both liked the First person version better. I found this odd cause when i read over it i thought it was crap but i usually think everything i write is either terrible or at least not good enough to get published.

I'll continue to pursue the first person style for a while and see how it turns out when i have more than two pages.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

I ask myself, is this story being told by me, or by my character?  If it's the latter, I use first person.

But that deprives you of the fun of telliong a third-person story through the filter of an unreliable narator with biases and agendas.

Once I had to use first person in a short story because there was no appropriate gender pronoun to use for the main character in 3rd. 

heh.  Some of us reject gendered pronouns in day-to-day life, and once you get that working, not doing it in fiction is easy.

[newtinmpls]

On the subject of putting information out there to generate the OMG - I should have seen that coming reaction; I recommend "Hamlet's Hit Points" by Robin Laws; it's meant for DMing, but it utilizes analysis of storytelling in a really cool way.

[Aminar]

But that deprives you of the fun of telliong a third-person story through the filter of an unreliable narator with biases and agendas.

That's so incredibly awkward at times, it's what I'm currently working on, third person but only with knowledge a given character would have(For the most part, there is a little outside narration when necessary.  Hardest thing, before a new POV character knows everyone names and your referring to characters as the male voice or the female voice with an odd accent.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

That's so incredibly awkward at times, it's what I'm currently working on, third person but only with knowledge a given character would have(For the most part, there is a little outside narration when necessary.  Hardest thing, before a new POV character knows everyone names and your referring to characters as the male voice or the female voice with an odd accent.

I don't see how that's hard, really. I see how it's convincingly realistic.

[Gruud]

I've been handling this in a bit of an odd (or maybe a good) way.

When folks first meet, they are primarily referred to by race, or by their profession, etc. in the mind of the current POV character.

It's only after a character gets to know another character that they actually begin referring to that person by their given name.

*shrug*

seems right to me

[Aminar]

I don't see how that's hard, really. I see how it's convincingly realistic.

Awkward and difficult aren't especially similar, it's just weird because the reader knows the characters names and with any luck knows who you're talking about.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Awkward and difficult aren't especially similar, it's just weird because the reader knows the characters names and with any luck knows who you're talking about.

I may be misreading what you are talking about here; if you're talking about character A describing character B when character A has only just met character B and does not yet know character B's name, how does the reader know character B's name ?  Is that something set up elsewhere in the story ? I thought you were talking about writing with a single viewpoint character.

[Bearracuda]

I've been handling this in a bit of an odd (or maybe a good) way.

When folks first meet, they are primarily referred to by race, or by their profession, etc. in the mind of the current POV character.

It's only after a character gets to know another character that they actually begin referring to that person by their given name.

*shrug*

seems right to me

Yeah, I love it so much when authors do that.  I chuckled everytime I heard Dresden refer to "Liverspots" in Dead Beat.  And that's just the one that came off the top of my head.  I can't even remember all the awesome nicknames Harry assigned to people throughout the series.