Genre Craft: Expectations of a Hybrid Genre

[Lanodantheon]

Rather than discuss story ideas that could ruin other people's plans, I wanted to discuss some writing craft that can get quite advanced, Genre. Specifically Hybrid genres. When I through that word Genre around, I specifically refer to the common themes, structures, character archetypes, aesthetics and such that codify a group of artistic works.

Genres are not necessary or accurate things, but they can be a helpful guide when planning a story. Genres are formulas that follow a cycle...but The Genre Cycle is a really advanced thing that is way ahead of this topic.

Every Genre has expectations in terms of characters, settings, plots, etc. Merging two of them together is both the art of making something distinctive while as a science must balance the expectations of both genres.

In particular, I'm working on a story that I can best describe to myself and others as a Swords & Sorcery-Western. I'm not trying to break new ground with this, just spin a good yarn and I need some help with it. And put The Gunslinger by Stephen King out of your mind, because I'm not trying to copy a series of books I haven't read and couldn't get into.

To be more specific, by Swords & Sorcery I mean, "Wizards slinging around Fireballs and Lightning Bolts while Swordsman make with massive swordfights again st all manner of monster, evil person and/or Godlike entity" in a pseudo-medieval setting of High Fantasy.  By Western I mean, "The iconography, themes, stories and characters of the Romantic notion of The American Old West" and because of my personal tastes, it's not a real Western until you kill more men then Cecil B. DeMille.

Note: In Cinema studies of Genre, the American Western is interchangeable with the Japanese Samurai films, specifically the old-fashioned period pieces(Jidaigeki) and the Chanbara sub-genre. 

The issues I've been having have been, well guns. I have no problem with Guns in High Fantasy. But, I want melee combat to still be strong. I want sword fights and people slinging Magic to be a common plot element.  But, The Western is kind of the natural environ for the Gun. "The Gun won The West" as they say. Plus, Guns relate to the Ideology of the Western Genre in that it represents individual Freedom, etc, etc(Film Theory stuff). And, one the classic Western yarns is the wronged boy who picks up a gun to become a man.

The other issue is that my Main Character is a Wizard of ill-repute and I wonder if I want him to just sling spells, carry a gun AND Sling spells OR carry a gun to sling spells. The setting is also looking to include Da Vinci-inspired Magical Artifices such as advanced Crossbows as well, but I'm not warm to the idea of having a Crossbow stand in for a Gun.

The issues I have boil down to 2 questions:

1. Can you have a self-defined "Swords & Sorcery-Western" story without Firearms of any kind or is the self-description of a "Western" require Firearms to be present? Would you as a reader be let down by picking up a story describing itself as a Western without any guns or gunplay in it or could you be satisfied with it being replaced with Chanbara-style swordfights?

The main question though is thus:

2. What options are there to do the classic Western trope of the Fast Draw at High Noon with a Main character is a Wizard of Ill-repute, not a Swordsman?  Similarly, there's the classic scene from a Fistful of Dollars/Yojimbo where the Man With No Name proves how badass he is by killing a bunch of guys in a matter of moments in a fast draw. How could you do that iconic scene with a Wizard other than *Raise hand* *Fireball* *Done*?

[meg_evonne]

1. Fun combo, but it sounds like you'd have to market it as a fantasy. Those western guys are quite a unique group of readers and this would throw them off. If they climb on the wagon later, I think that would be cool. I mean, think of Firefly. Putting in horses and western clothes was not going to bring in the 'western' genre in my opinion. Even the soon to be released Aliens and Cowboys isn't going to bring in the true 'western' folk.

2. Refer to any of Harry's battles, but the one on Wrigley with the Red Court Vamp comes immediately to mind.  A good exercise for you would be to watch Fistful of Dollars and simply rewrite it screen by screen as a wizard battle--it will read, well see, the same I would think.  Note that I said 'exercise' not include as part of your writing. Another fun one to re-write as an exercise would be the James Marsters gun fight in the Torchwood series.  Those should give you a comfort level at finding the details between 'fireball' and 'done'. LOL  Just a reminder to not over power your main character or it isn't any fun to read.

[Vryce]

First I want to say like the idea, and I totally get where you are coming from on the questions and if it can work.

I was working on something similar.   The idea was what would happen if magic had always been around and it was modern day.  I like the idea of trying to explain what was item of technology would never have been made and what could have happened if we had the ability to sling energy around.

So when you ask your questions here is what I had sitting already in the back of my head.

1)   Can you have a self-defined "Swords & Sorcery-Western" story without Firearms of any kind or is the self-description of a "Western" require Firearms to be present? Would you as a reader be let down by picking up a story describing itself as a Western without any guns or gunplay in it or could you be satisfied with it being replaced with Chanbara-style swordfights?
I would say yes, and here is some way.  Why was the firearm created.  To give a weapon to a solider that could penetrate armor/shield and was relatively easy to train with.  Its why we stopped wearing mass amount of metal armor, well until our tech. got good enough that we understood the way bullets moved and Kevlar was invented.   So in your world would a gun ever be needed if you had wizards running around.  Could an Artificer simply have created a wand/rod or other type of weapon that the mundane could use and act like a gun.  Lots of books and movies bring up wand duals, and I think this would work great in a western setting.
Then you brought up the melee combat and still have strong Gun/wand play.  Ways to keep this going, would be to find a reason why it is.  Could be as easy as wizards or talisman can put of a shield that stops the wand energy from getting to them, but it is a lot harder to stop a sword in the gut.  Or limited amount of charges in the Wand/Gun.  If you have a wizard that can stop a few blasts of gun or wand fire, might be  nice to have a sturdy sword as a back up.  Or spell eaters, maybe a race or group of people that are like an anti-mage or can absorb energy of spells thrown at them but a nice dagger to the back works well.  Lots of ideas on that reason.

2)    What options are there to do the classic Western trope of the Fast Draw at High Noon with a Main character is a Wizard of Ill-repute, not a Swordsman?  Similarly, there's the classic scene from a Fistful of Dollars/Yojimbo where the Man With No Name proves how badass he is by killing a bunch of guys in a matter of moments in a fast draw. How could you do that iconic scene with a Wizard other than *Raise hand* *Fireball* *Done*?
I talked about wizards wand dueling above, I think this would just take it to the next level.  I see spell slinging a lot like the old western duals. 

Hope this helps

[Quantus]

Fantastic Idea, I like the direction you are coming at it from.

To make a good hybrid work, from what Ive seen, you really need to strip it down to its key elements.  In the case of a Western, its all about the Frontier Idea.  You need a main setting to be vast expanses of wilderness with dots of rough civilization spread through it, usually located in some strategic place (natural resources, transportaion hub etc).  There needs to be an area of higher industrial/technological development "elsewhere" that contrasts the rough frontier mentality of the main setting ("Back East" in traditional westerns, the Core in Firefly, etc).  Its this place where the quality finished goods will come from, though there can also be rougher/cheaper local versions.  A western is typically a fight for resources: a farm, a mine, a river, a stretch of land for a railroad, etc.


EDIT:  Its quitin' time!  I have more and will post it when I get home 

[Lanodantheon]

1. Fun combo, but it sounds like you'd have to market it as a fantasy. Those western guys are quite a unique group of readers and this would throw them off. If they climb on the wagon later, I think that would be cool. I mean, think of Firefly. Putting in horses and western clothes was not going to bring in the 'western' genre in my opinion. Even the soon to be released Aliens and Cowboys isn't going to bring in the true 'western' folk.

It's fantasy first, yes. It's just High Fantasy through the Lens of a Western. What I wonder is how much of that lens to use.

The Aesthetics and themes of the Western are what I'm trying to include. The connection to the history of the frontier and the genre as a whole.

2. Refer to any of Harry's battles, but the one on Wrigley with the Red Court Vamp comes immediately to mind.  A good exercise for you would be to watch Fistful of Dollars and simply rewrite it screen by screen as a wizard battle--it will read, well see, the same I would think.  Note that I said 'exercise' not include as part of your writing. Another fun one to re-write as an exercise would be the James Marsters gun fight in the Torchwood series.  Those should give you a comfort level at finding the details between 'fireball' and 'done'. LOL  Just a reminder to not over power your main character or it isn't any fun to read.

I've been developing the Magic system and recently the thought of charging up has interested me as a way of visualizing the calm before the storm of battle.

In terms of power level, no worries it's being managed. Like Whedon before me, my literature is based on my main character's suffering, misery and injuries.

In terms of the Fistful of Dollars exercise, I've thought of like 5 ways to do it, I just don't know which to pick.

1)   
I would say yes, and here is some way.  Why was the firearm created?  To give a weapon to a solider that could penetrate armor/shield and was relatively easy to train with.  Its why we stopped wearing mass amount of metal armor, well until our tech. got good enough that we understood the way bullets moved and Kevlar was invented.   So in your world would a gun ever be needed if you had wizards running around.  Could an Artificer simply have created a wand/rod or other type of weapon that the mundane could use and act like a gun.  Lots of books and movies bring up wand duals, and I think this would work great in a western setting.
Then you brought up the melee combat and still have strong Gun/wand play.  Ways to keep this going, would be to find a reason why it is.  Could be as easy as wizards or talisman can put of a shield that stops the wand energy from getting to them, but it is a lot harder to stop a sword in the gut.  Or limited amount of charges in the Wand/Gun.  If you have a wizard that can stop a few blasts of gun or wand fire, might be  nice to have a sturdy sword as a back up.  Or spell eaters, maybe a race or group of people that are like an anti-mage or can absorb energy of spells thrown at them but a nice dagger to the back works well.  Lots of ideas on that reason.

Magic Anti-Projectile Armor did occur to me. I subscribe to the idea that if Knights had been entirely bullet-proof they'd still be around. Rick Gillard, the stuntmaster for Star Wars said, "If these Jedi are using swords in a universe of Laser guns, they better be pretty damn good with them."

How much magic a Wizard can bring to bare is a concern. I've been developing my Magic system with something akin to an observable ammo capacity so that you can have the classic Western situation of 6 bullets left in your gun, but 7 bad guys still alive.

2)   
I talked about wizards wand dueling above, I think this would just take it to the next level.  I see spell slinging a lot like the old western duels. 

That's what I was thinking too, but I meant aesthetically. Need to be able to get that draw of the fast draw. As I mentioned above, I've been playing with the idea of gathering energy. Kinda like DBZ now that I think of it only no shouting.

To make a good hybrid work, from what Ive seen, you really need to strip it down to its key elements.  In the case of a Western, its all about the Frontier Idea.  You need a main setting to be vast expanses of wilderness with dots of rough civilization spread through it, usually located in some strategic place (natural resources, transportaion hub etc).  There needs to be an area of higher industrial/technological development "elsewhere" that contrasts the rough frontier mentality of the main setting ("Back East" in traditional westerns, the Core in Firefly, etc).  Its this place where the quality finished goods will come from, though there can also be rougher/cheaper local versions.  A western is typically a fight for resources: a farm, a mine, a river, a stretch of land for a railroad, etc.
EDIT:  Its quitin' time!  I have more and will post it when I get home 

Already ahead of you there. For reference, the story's frontier is basically what used to be Mordor. An entire continent that has been until recently completely uncharted for the duration of human memory.

Well, back to work. more on this later.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

In re fantasy westerns, there are always King's Dark Tower books, but they would seem to have taken off on Stephen King already being a success, and other than that, I can't think of any that succeeded; Mark Sumner had a trilogy of which the third one never saw print, and K.J. Bishop's The Etched City is in that direction, and there is a Felix Gilman this year.  All of these struck me as fun but none of them really took off, so if there's a trick to making this work i have no clues as to what it is.

[meg_evonne]

Dang. I'm awestruck with your reading acumen.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Dang. I'm awestruck with your reading acumen.

I read very fast, and I usually read a few hours every day.  After a few decades it adds up.

[meg_evonne]

but you have to have the mind to remember. mine doesn't anymore.

[Lanodantheon]

It's not a real thread on this forums until Neurovore gives his sage-like advice at least in a small chime.

One of the reasons I posted this topic was because there are a lot of people who are a lot more well-read than me. One or two to the titles you listed actually look interesting(Or at least that one by Felix Gilman).

I mentioned before that I've put the Dark Tower series out of my mind, for the simple reason that I couldn't get into it and wanted to approach this subject of genre from a cinematic rather than a literary perspective(even though this will be a novel). 

Though after reading more about it I almost want to slog through at least the audiobooks.

On the subject of Steampunk, there is room in the novel for a kind of Magical Steampunk. That is, Golem-like artifices that resemble reflections of technology in an ocean of Magic, but are at the end of the day Magical objects.

Back on the 2 topics at hand that I originally put forth. Going back words:

2. On the topic of how to do the Fast Draw, I've come to the conclusion that in either case of guns or no guns or something between that gathering/charging of energy will serve the needs of drama for the fastdraw. Wizards need to charge their fireballs and that can create good tension. It's also a great gimmick for limiting the Power Level of Magic Users.

1. I haven't come to a conclusion yet on this point. I do not know if I want guns or gun-like objects.

What remains is a cost benefit analysis: What the inclusion of firearms adds versus what ripples on the pond it creates.

For reference, until about 10-20 years before the story begins, the world's Tech-level had been essentially a perpetual 1066 even with Magic. What little Magic there was was used in isolated case and didn't really improved the quality of life. Mostly for engineering projects for example. A Magically Constructed Castle by itself does nothing to increase life expentancy per se.

Warfare is...Swords and Sorcery. Most advanced weapons on the battlefield are Magical Artificeie Compound Bows and Crossbows.

The three options in my head are thus:

A. Firearms like we have in the real world. A True Western...with Magic too. And swords. This would be distinctive and it would make for quite the blood bath since you have the most advanced weapons imaginable just put into the hands of people still in the mindset of "Charge on horseback. Kill with spear." This would be augmented by making Magical armor somewhat bullet-resistant at the low end and at the high-end bullet proof. Also the chanbara cliche of Knights so good with swords they can knock bullets out of the air.

This would allow for the theme of the Death of the Romanticized medieval age. But I'm lukewarm to this idea because I know several series that feature the introduction of Firearms like this and they usually relate to a hatred of the modern age on the author's part. I myself like fantasy, but do not hate the modern age.

But, it also ceases to be true Swords & Sorcery and becomes Swords & Sorcery now with guns...


B. No Firearms.

It preserves Swords & Sorcery perfectly. The Sword, the bow, the crossbow and others can take the place of the Gun in the Western mythos since it is so closely linked with Chanbara. The Western Elements become a bit of a flavor in terms of plot construction, but it is otherwise High Fantasy in my own way.

It would be more difficult to differeniate from the endless swarm of similar stories and worlds.

C. Firearm-like Magical Projectile Warfare. Firearm-Foci

This option is halfway between the two, and keeps it S&S and adds in Firearm-like weapons through cheating. Instead of a gunpowder-based Firearm, Wizards use Foci shaped like Guns that are otherwise just magical objects that channel magic for use as projectile weapons. A firearm is just a really easy to use projectile weapon. What these Firearm-Foci would do is give the same results without making it an easy to manufacture technology.

In this case, the Firearm-Foci would require Magical ability of some kind to be able to channel, gather and store the magic needed for them to work. It would also necessitate "Sparks" people who only have enough Magical ability to use these weapons and similar items and do nothing else magically speaking.

Note: I have a hard magic system to go with this world already. Which would make carrying these weapons extremely rewarding and hazardous at the same time for these Sparks.


But, I don't know which one sounds....most attractive.  Could use a second or third opinion.

[Haru]

I can think of only one way that guns and swords could coexist. While guns are great at killing humans and smaller critters, there might be quite a few monsters and demons out there that cannot be harmed by bullets but can still be cut into pieces by a good old sword. That way, both weapons have their validity. Having a reputation as a gunslinger might even be less impressive to some people than that of a master swordsman, and swords duels might be as common as pistol duels. You would probably need both skills to survive anyway.

A western without guns would seem sort of weird, because some of the iconic moments would simply not be possible. I wouldn't say it is impossible to do, but you would have a hard time establishing it against the readers expectation, but done well it should not be a problem. If you want a reason why there are no guns, magic as described below could be common enough so nobody ever bothered inventing them.

As for magic, I have one thing to say at first: I hate wands.
Don't get me wrong, there are places where they fit in, but magical western just isn't it. The whole western setting is rough and unpolished, so the style of magic should reflect that. Singular abilities, for example a fireslinger who can... well, sling fire. A natural gun if you will, with the same power and accuracy a gun would have. He would even have to "load" his power, engulfing his hand in fire with his will, which (coincidently!) takes about the time someone else would need to draw a gun.
Let's look at a duel. A gunslinger against a fireslinger. Both draw back their coats, the first reveals his holster holding his gun, he puts his hand next to it in the typical close up gesture. The second one reveals that he does not have a holster, maybe to intimidate the opponent, because he knows what he has coming. He too holds his hand next to where his holster would be, a nervous twitch in his index finger. On the draw, the fireslinger quickly stretches his hand, engulfing it in flame, then thrusting it forwards to throw a bolt of fire at his opponent.
Or a bar fight, some guys have their guns out, the fireslinger has his hand ablaze, when the sheriff comes in and tell him to put it out (like he would otherwise tell someone to drop a gun).
The whole spellbook, magic staff, whatever stereotype wizards stuff you have should probably not come up that often. That is "old world magic". There might still be some of those around, because a full blown sorcerer would make a great gang boss. Restricted in the old world, they can freely follow their dark desires in the new land.

Other kinds of magic could be less fight oriented. For example, I have the concept for a character called "First Aid Kid", You can guess his magical talent
At a whole, if you stay mainly in the western genre, magic should probably just partially replace certain iconic objects and only for some people, while those items are still around.

Native magic (if you have an equivalent of native americans) would probably be more like druids or shamans (totems, dancing, influencing plants and animals, shifting into an animalform, stuff like that), and some of the settlers might even be learning some of it or something similar, especially scouts or similar characters would profit from this. And it is a great source for some cultural conflict. Could be even more interesting, if they use bows but there are no guns.

The fireslinger magic (any magic that does not fall under the shaman/druid category really) could either be hereditary or come from some item (no wands!). If you don't have guns, it should probably be items, so they replace the guns.

[Lanodantheon]

Yet another good set of opinions....

I can think of only one way that guns and swords could coexist. While guns are great at killing humans and smaller critters, there might be quite a few monsters and demons out there that cannot be harmed by bullets but can still be cut into pieces by a good old sword. That way, both weapons have their validity. Having a reputation as a gunslinger might even be less impressive to some people than that of a master swordsman, and swords duels might be as common as pistol duels. You would probably need both skills to survive anyway.

I could see that(in my vision of things) as being plausible with the "Magic Swords but no Magic Bullets" axiom, which my Magic system already follows. In my system to make a long story short, if you actually made a "Magic bullet" and fired it out of a gun, it is more likely to leave a crater where your gunslinger used to be. But...monsters with immunities to "Normal weapons" and requiring magical weapons to hurt feels to much to me as an author like old editions of D&D, even if that was not your intention and besides it does date back hundreds of years to mythology.

It's a neat idea...but not really attractive to me.

A western without guns would seem sort of weird, because some of the iconic moments would simply not be possible. I wouldn't say it is impossible to do, but you would have a hard time establishing it against the readers expectation, but done well it should not be a problem. If you want a reason why there are no guns, magic as described below could be common enough so nobody ever bothered inventing them.

I have to ways to handwave away firearms built into the setting. THey almost always end with "A Wizard did it" or just simply "WIzards..." and I 'm being quite serious. 

As for magic, I have one thing to say at first: I hate wands.
Don't get me wrong, there are places where they fit in, but magical western just isn't it. The whole western setting is rough and unpolished, so the style of magic should reflect that. Singular abilities, for example a fireslinger who can... well, sling fire. A natural gun if you will, with the same power and accuracy a gun would have. He would even have to "load" his power, engulfing his hand in fire with his will, which (coincidently!) takes about the time someone else would need to draw a gun.

Let's look at a duel. A gunslinger against a fireslinger. Both draw back their coats, the first reveals his holster holding his gun, he puts his hand next to it in the typical close up gesture. The second one reveals that he does not have a holster, maybe to intimidate the opponent, because he knows what he has coming. He too holds his hand next to where his holster would be, a nervous twitch in his index finger. On the draw, the fireslinger quickly stretches his hand, engulfing it in flame, then thrusting it forwards to throw a bolt of fire at his opponent.

Or a bar fight, some guys have their guns out, the fireslinger has his hand ablaze, when the sheriff comes in and tell him to put it out (like he would otherwise tell someone to drop a gun).

I don't like wands either, they are not very good props. The only business(Non-dialogue actions) that I could think of for characterization was twirling one between the fingers. Plus, being so small and made of wood they are very fragile.

I will also say that I never thought of making Magic rough and unpolished like Old West. Thank you for pointing in that direction.

I also like that parlance of -Slinger to describe spellcasters. It has a nice ring to it.

That bar fight scenario also reminded of a key Western trope I completely forgot about but need to have: The Mexican Standoff(In the case of my world it's be the Serican Standoff)...

The whole spellbook, magic staff, whatever stereotype wizards stuff you have should probably not come up that often. That is "old world magic". There might still be some of those around, because a full blown sorcerer would make a great gang boss. Restricted in the old world, they can freely follow their dark desires in the new land.

I really that idea of a dicotomy of Old World versus Frontier because that's what the West was like. I never thought about that really. Thanks again.

I am updating certain things though because there are certain Old World Tropes that just don't make sense to me as being part of the setting and doesn't go with my vision of Wizards(for this setting).

Other kinds of magic could be less fight oriented. For example, I have the concept for a character called "First Aid Kid", You can guess his magical talent

Although that's a neat idea, this is The West, sir. That first aid kit/Doctor's valise you carry comes with the Local universal cureall: The Hacksaw.... The local doctor goes, "What's a germ?"

At a whole, if you stay mainly in the western genre, magic should probably just partially replace certain iconic objects and only for some people, while those items are still around.

To paraphrase Branden Sanderson, "Magic doesn't exist in a Vacuum" Making it reflective of The OLd Western is one thing, the ripples Magic's presence makes on the proverbial pond is another.

ANd that's not even taking into consideration the presence of Non-Humans like Elves and Dwarves, who are not just Star Trek Aliens for this.

Native magic (if you have an equivalent of native americans) would probably be more like druids or shamans (totems, dancing, influencing plants and animals, shifting into an animalform, stuff like that), and some of the settlers might even be learning some of it or something similar, especially scouts or similar characters would profit from this. And it is a great source for some cultural conflict. Could be even more interesting, if they use bows but there are no guns.

Yet another thing I never considered...Native Americans. Can't have a Western without....Geronimo...*Dramatic Music Hit*(That pause and hit actually happened in Stagecoach. Nowadays it's hilarious. Check it out).

The whole Druidic Animal-Based magic for me is too on-the-nose and far too obvious a choice for what I have in mind. I already have 4 Magic sources...I guess I'll need one more for the Native American angle. Still not sure where to go with that.

Thanks for the thoughts Haru.

[Nickeris86]

i tried doing a fantasy western a while back, in my setting magic was a solid substance that had to be forged to get the desired effect and combined to get the weirder things. its effects were based on its color with white and black being the rarest and most powerful. guns still exist but they had to have measured amounts of the magical substance in their bullets rather than gunpowder, and the guns were very hard and expensive to make so only a very very few had them and they tended to be marshals or very powerful bounty hunters/criminals. everyone else had swords and such and could have ones magical ones as well.

It was a fun idea but started getting a little to animeish for my tastes.

though i did enjoy the idea of swordslingers over gunslingers. i also had it so that people that used swords, particularly magic ones, were called Half Coats, because they had their dusters cut away on the side with their sword so the coat wouldn't get in the way.

as for the Native magic and the old world vs frontier i have some thoughts

read up on some native american myths their are plenty of horrible monsters and magic in them to help you build an idea for how to make your own native magic. For example, i read a legend a while back about skinwalkers that weren't evil monsters but powerful shamens who could turn into wolves through to protect their tribe.

also watch some old Clint Eastwood westerns, or other good westerns and think how could i do this with magic and swords rather than guns.

I think you would have to have focuses or some way for bounty hunters and marshals to cancel out someone else power easily otherwise bringing in someone who can call up fire at will would be impossible to take in alive.

[Lanodantheon]

i tried doing a fantasy western a while back, in my setting magic was a solid substance that had to be forged to get the desired effect and combined to get the weirder things. its effects were based on its color with white and black being the rarest and most powerful. guns still exist but they had to have measured amounts of the magical substance in their bullets rather than gunpowder, and the guns were very hard and expensive to make so only a very very few had them and they tended to be marshals or very powerful bounty hunters/criminals. everyone else had swords and such and could have ones magical ones as well.

It was a fun idea but started getting a little to animeish for my tastes.

That doesn't sound very Animeish to me...but I haven't read samples of it in action. Plus, "Animeish" is a very vague descriptor to me given the range of Anime from Grave of The Fireflies to Ghost in The Shell to Excel Saga to (On the subject of Fantasy) Slayers.

though i did enjoy the idea of swordslingers over gunslingers. i also had it so that people that used swords, particularly magic ones, were called Half Coats, because they had their dusters cut away on the side with their sword so the coat wouldn't get in the way.

Why cut off half the coat? ...it's a waste of a perfectly good coat. You wear dusters in the west because it protects from the elements and in the case of the Western, more often than not you're in the desert. Cutting off part of the coat would defeat the purpose of wearing it. I'm not an authority on swordsmanship in any capacity but what I've seen you grap the sheathe with one hand when you draw so the coat won't make much of a difference if's it's tailored correctly. But, that could be incorect.

But, that's a nitpick of a story you've obviously abandoned.   

as for the Native magic and the old world vs frontier i have some thoughts

read up on some native american myths their are plenty of horrible monsters and magic in them to help you build an idea for how to make your own native magic. For example, i read a legend a while back about skinwalkers that weren't evil monsters but powerful shamens who could turn into wolves through to protect their tribe.

Oh yeah. Native American tribes have a rich mythology and history. Even just the history and the effects of smallpox and the anthropological origin of the Wendigo is facinating.  But...having the Native Americans(or NA Analogs) with Shape-changing powers, dances, lots of peyote and tons of stereotypes are....really obvious. I'm going my own way with things and doing the vanilla NAs with lots of stereotypes is not it at the moment. Though the idea of drawing on Soviet Westerns I've never seen is neat now that I think of it.... 

also watch some old Clint Eastwood westerns, or other good westerns and think how could i do this with magic and swords rather than guns.

I think you would have to have focuses or some way for bounty hunters and marshals to cancel out someone else power easily otherwise bringing in someone who can call up fire at will would be impossible to take in alive.

Not a big Eastwood fan on my end. Sergio Leone (Who didn't speak English) once explained that he loved to work with Eastwood(who didn't speak Italian) because he only had 2 expressions, "Wearing his hat" and "Not wearing his hat" . I'm in a unique position of liking a genre or at least the ideas surrounding a genre without liking very many instances of that genre.

That is a good point about the defenses, though. I will keep that in mind.

Also, not just for Marshals. If you want to get technical, I also need defensive Foci and stuff for Rustlers, Cutthroats, Murderers, Bounty Hunters, Desperados, Mugs, Pugs, Thugs, Nitwits, Half-Wits, Dimwits, Vipers, Snipers, Con Men, Indian Agents, Mexican Bandits, Muggers, B*******, Bushwackers, Hornswagglers, Horse Thieves, **** ****s, Train Robbers, Bank Robbers, A** Kickers, S*** Kickers and Methodists! .....

[OZ]

There are of course a lot of ways to go with this. As has been mentioned before there are several steampunk novels that mix Westerns with magic. I don't know of any books off the top of my head that mix high fantasy with Westerns. One way to have guns in your story (I personally have trouble picturing a Western without some type of guns.) is to limit the effectiveness of the guns. Maybe put them back in a cap and ball era so that you got your six shots but there is no way you would have time to reload. Maybe make them all muzzle loaders. Maybe make gunpowder much more rare and expensive so it is only used sparingly. Maybe make the only bullets that would be magically relevant, big enough that pistols would only have two or three shots instead of six or twelve. You could use something similar to what L E Modesitt does in his Recluse novels where magicians can easily ignite gunpowder so anyone that is going up against a wizard tends to avoid it unless they have some means of shielding it from the wizard's power. It's not very helpful to have all the bullets in your gun or in your belt or pocket go off at once.

Although it's not the old West, if you want a story that combines guns, magic or advanced science ( the lines are a bit blurred ), and frontier like settings, I would recommend Modesitt's Corean Chronicles series.