Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)

[MegaPuff75]

Also the only reason Harry became the WK is because he broke his back falling off that ladder and landing on something, no one could have predicted that this would have happened.

[Vryce]

i think Marcon did....
something about he does not have to kill him because Harry's over developed sense of honor/morals would get him killed of offed anyway.

No predicting that would exactly happen... No
but i think there have been a lot of people and things that have been waiting for Dresden to jump into something he could not handle

[itari]

Also the only reason Harry became the WK is because he broke his back falling off that ladder and landing on something, no one could have predicted that this would have happened.

Oh? I'm sure it wasn't an accident.

[Rasins]

He doesn't stumble.  He's steered every step of the way.  There are very few chapters in Changes where Harry is not being managed by some combination of a) the Merlin b) Eb c) Mab or Lea d) Uriel/the White God e) Odin.  It's not a complicated set of chances left to run, it's an operation micromanaged every step of the way.

WAIT A MINUTE ... Changes was set up by Susan telling Harry they had a child.  Do you believe that the Merlin, Eb, Mab/Lea, Uriel/the White God, AND (not or), Odin all knew he had a kid and that that child was going to be used in a bloodline curse?

I could see one or two of them knowing, but not all, and not all being on the same page with a plan that ultimately won the war for the WC.

[contraducktory]

Everyone but the Merlin and Eb could have known.  As for the bloodline curse, it would all depend on the 'foresight' that particular entity possessed.

[Rasins]

Everyone but the Merlin and Eb could have known.  As for the bloodline curse, it would all depend on the 'foresight' that particular entity possessed.

I agree that those three COULD have known, but I doubt that all three DID know.  In fact, I'd bet that the WG and Lea/MAB did know.  Odin - maybe after Harry's visit.  But enough for them to micromanage the events in Changes ... I find that doubtful.

[Kettu]

There were way to many variables with too many available paths to being seriously up the creek for the CI scenario to have been micromanaged. MAYBE if we had seen Lea whisper to Harry that turning Susan and sacrificing her was tha answer I could by into your theory, but Harry came up with it all on his own that we could see. An no one, anywhere, wants to leave any plan up to Harry's bolshevik muppet thinking bringing him to the right conclusion.

Read the conversations that Harry had with Odin, Mab/Lea and Uriel again. They don't quite draw him a chart but close... Odin at least was practically hammering him over the head with "See, bloodline curse will follow the bloodline up, remember this, it's important, and did I mention that all Red Court vamps are family-as-in-related-by-blood, geddit? Get what I'm saying?" Susan wasn't going to randomly die in the battle either, because Lea gave her magical protections that made her completely undetectable and she had Amorrachius to boot. Sanya conveniently appeared after Harry was injured, not ten seconds before when he could have stopped it from happening. Both Odin and Uriel directed Harry towards becoming the Winter Knight. And from where exactly did the idea to sacrifice Susan come into Harry's head, anyway? Mab was whispering in his mind during that battle.

I agree that those three COULD have known, but I doubt that all three DID know.  In fact, I'd bet that the WG and Lea/MAB did know.  Odin - maybe after Harry's visit.  But enough for them to micromanage the events in Changes ... I find that doubtful.

There's no doubt that they knew. They all mention Maggie before Harry himself brings her up, and Odin is the very person who volunteers the info about the bloodline curse and Chichen Itza.

ETA: And on top of all this we know for a fact that Mab's highest ranking servant, Lea, and Odin were working together to bring the Grey Council to CI. There had to be coordination and planning going on.

Oh? I'm sure it wasn't an accident.

Same here.

[itari]

Susan wasn't going to randomly die in the battle either, because Lea gave her magical protections that made her completely undetectable and she had Amorrachius to boot.

And totally by accident, Harry wore conquistador outfit, while Susan was dressed up as a human sacrifice. A not-so-subtle hint from the Sidhe?

Heh, it's even in the WoJ compilation:

Did anyone else note that the costume that Lea gave Susan was sacrificial robe to Harry's conquistador?
GOD I LOVE AN OBSERVANT READER!

[Serack]

And totally by accident, Harry wore conquistador outfit, while Susan was dressed up as a human sacrifice. A not-so-subtle hint from the Sidhe?

Heh, it's even in the WoJ compilation:

Your WoJ foo is strong

[itari]

Your WoJ foo is strong

Why, thanks! (and this coming from the WoJ Rock Star himself )

[ebliss1]

And totally by accident, Harry wore conquistador outfit, while Susan was dressed up as a human sacrifice. A not-so-subtle hint from the Sidhe?

Heh, it's even in the WoJ compilation:

Ahh, true - BUT the Spanish Conquistadores were trying to wipe out the "savages" who practiced human sacrifice because that was contrary to Catholic dogma. The Spanish were not the ones doing the sacrificing - though one could argue that the numbers of deaths caused by the conquistadores would have been dramatically lower if they had bought into the Aztec/Inca/Maya religions as opposed to doing the whole genocide thing.

All that being said, it seems somehow hypocritical of Jim to have all of Harry's actions micromanaged to the point of him almost blindly following some divine plan when he hammers home to us in the text so often that humans actually have free will. If we get som many occurrences of exposition talking about the merits of free will and the ability to make choices, and then have the whole series as being a human who was herded into making the only possible choices to follow a divine plan will be a serious cop out.

[Kettu]

All that being said, it seems somehow hypocritical of Jim to have all of Harry's actions micromanaged to the point of him almost blindly following some divine plan when he hammers home to us in the text so often that humans actually have free will. If we get som many occurrences of exposition talking about the merits of free will and the ability to make choices, and then have the whole series as being a human who was herded into making the only possible choices to follow a divine plan will be a serious cop out.

Being manipulated is not the same thing as not having free will. Harry still made his own choices every step of the way.

[Phariah]

And totally by accident, Harry wore conquistador outfit, while Susan was dressed up as a human sacrifice. A not-so-subtle hint from the Sidhe?

Heh, it's even in the WoJ compilation:

the sacrifice on the table had no robe nor did Lil Maggie. the outfit Susan wore was more like the vamp priestess robes. not a human sacrifice. the only play at anything i see would be Arianna and Ortega. she was a Mayan priestess and he was a conquistador. Lea knew of this and even talked about it in the limo. the robes like the one at the RC warehouse. they were props for the ceremony worn by the people committing the sacrifice.

[itari]

So why did Jim write that he loved an observant reader, if the outfits weren't significant at all?