Who told Monica Sells? (Wild speculation and possible series spoilers)

[Serack]

True, I suspect that it is based on Harry's knowledge of the Sidhe.  Harry assumes that since the Sidhe cannot kill a mortal unless he/she is involved with one of the courts, no creature from the nevernever can kill a mortal unless they enter into (or violate) the Accords.

Several people have pointed out lately that it's just the queens that have this restriction.  Before Curses I could have argued it both ways, but it's flat out stated in Curses that:

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Harry love, the Queens of Winter and Summer do not kill mortals and so frown on their followers taking such action, but the High folk of the Tylwyth Teg have no such restrictions

I get the idea that the Sidhe need to have some kind of connection to work magic on a mortal, but that doesn't mean they can't do other things to harm them... other than that if they are a member of the courts the Queens may not like it, and I would posit that if they are working at the behest of the queens they flat out can't.  

That's a side track though.  

I don't think that Victor Sells ever met Lara or Lord Raith.  Only because if he were their cat's paw, there was probably another blind between him and them.

[Phariah]

yes that is true. Lara explains when Harry confronts her about Madeline. Lara says she was a fool for only removing herself by 1 factor/ blind removed from the lawyer.

[OlosBC]

Your spoiler tag is where I disagree.  I think Victor was given an unused ritual to test whether it would work, and was otherwise totally disposable.

Except we know from the end of Changes that Martin, as a Red court half-vamp priest saw the ritual, or read about it, and used that as the basis for his scheme to double-bluff and destroy the RC.  This doesn't mesh well with the idea that it's something that hadn't been tested until some no-name newb sorceror in Chicago used storm/sex power to run it.

[Alablast]

Then I remembered that Jim has said that he really enjoyed writing Backup because it allowed him to go into the background of the

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Oblivion Wars

, which was something he had really been wanting to do but couldn't do from Harry's perspective for obvious reasons.  Unfortunately at the time that I heard him say that, I hadn't read Backup and had no idea what Jim was talking about. Even more unfortunate, I didn't record it, and apparently it was in an audio or video WoJ source that has yet to be transcribed because I can't find it using browser search methods. 

The opening paragraph in Side Jobs for Backup is pretty much exactly that.  Good memory.  o_O  I would type in the exact quote for you, but I'm too lazy to get up and get my Nook, but it can be found there.

[Serack]

The opening paragraph in Side Jobs for Backup is pretty much exactly that.  Good memory.  o_O  I would type in the exact quote for you, but I'm too lazy to get up and get my Nook, but it can be found there.

THANK YOU!

I was going nuts trying to remember where I got that from.

I also got to bring some of the other background material of the Dresden Files story world into play.  The Oblivion War was something I really loved, conceptually, but like the White Court its very nature prevented Dresden from getting involved without causing the entire thing to implode.  This was an ideal place for that piece of universe background, and it made me feel all warm and fuzzy to finally get it out where the readers could see it, too.

(My nook was 12 inches from my hand, and was actually at the page before that one for Side Jobs)

[Alablast]

In Changes,

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Odin states that Victor's spell is the same as the Red Courts, just smaller.

Putting this together, we have Victor Sells, a potental mage who works for a possible White Court shell company and was taught

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a Red Court killing ritual normally reserved for only their most massive attacks

.  I think that Victor was actually a White Court cats paw meant to draw Harry into play on a greater game,

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possibly the oblivion war?

  I suspect that it will eventually be revealed that Victor's teacher was either Lara or Thomas Raith, and I am personally leaning more towards Lara.


Well, that's my theory.  Is it crazy like a fox Duck or just plain crazy?

Why do we all assume the spell was the Red Court's, and that it was a prized possession they've used before?  The impression I got was that the Red Court was given that spell, just like Victor Sells was, and that they were HORRIBLY BAD AT IT.  They had to sacrifice how many people, to get enough juice to kill three wizards, and maybe a few people on Susan's side of the tree?  Say Susan's parents and grandparents were both alive, and she had two siblings- that's twelve people; we'll say fifteen to be safe.  Victor managed to kill two completely unrelated people at the same time without any sacrifices.  I'm not saying that there's no problem to go from killing two unrelated people with one spell to killing fifteen related people, but to be fair Victor Sells wasn't really a wizard, but a gifted person that had learned a few tricks.  The Red Court had multiple sorcerers working on the spell, had props to go along with and beef it up, and while they might have needed some sacrifices even still... I am not too impressed that the Red Court needed that much to pull it off (they were killing for hours while Dresden was on the way there).  Granted, Victor had a storm to beef his spell, but they had a ley line running right underneath.

I don't think it was there spell; I think somebody as yet still unrevealed was manipulating Victor and the Red Court.

[contraducktory]

Possible, Odin never said, it was their spell.  Just that they were working up some big juju, like in the old days.  Does not mean it was there spell.  But if you had a spell that could take out a bloodline, would you share it?

[Alablast]

Possible, Odin never said, it was their spell.  Just that they were working up some big juju, like in the old days.  Does not mean it was there spell.  But if you had a spell that could take out a bloodline, would you share it?

With somebody that hated the same guy I did?  In a heartbeat.  That way I don't have to worry about the 'police' coming after me.  The white court isn't the only group that likes to work behind the scenes, and manipulate everybody into doing their dirty work for them.

[KeyMasterOfGozer]

With somebody that hated the same guy I did?  In a heartbeat.  That way I don't have to worry about the 'police' coming after me.  The white court isn't the only group that likes to work behind the scenes, and manipulate everybody into doing their dirty work for them.

IN the time of SF, did the RC or the WC either know who Harry was, or have any reason to have him as an enemy?

[Alablast]

IN the time of SF, did the RC or the WC either know who Harry was, or have any reason to have him as an enemy?

I was arguing more about the possibility that the spell didn't belong to the Red Court originally- that somebody may have given it to them to take down Harry/Eb.

Somebody didn't like somebody enough to give Victor the spell, though.  My guess is it was probably Marcone, especially given how Fool Moon turned out.  That may have been an example of good intentions slowly being corrupted- they started out trying to destroy a criminal, and then got so focused on destroying the people that stood in their way?  More likely they were trying to remove the competition, and worked through intermediaries in case somebody got suspicious. 

[Rasins]

Some thoughts …

I like the idea of Monica using the Arcane as her in with Harry.

As to the rest …

I have little doubt that Pappa Raith was the one behind Victor and the spell.  I think Pappa didn’t have to DO anything with Vic to get it going.  All he had to do was to provide access to some books that had the spell in it.  Remember it’s a Cha-ching spell.  The White Council could easily have had it published to get it used to dilute it like they did lots of other books.  It had simply fallen into dis-use.

As to the notion that it was a RC spell that hadn’t been used in thousands of years, I could see one Black Council member (RC King) talking to the Pappa Raith to get him to find someone to test the spell.  Remember, magic changes over time.  If it hadn’t been used in awhile, it may need tweaking to get it to work right.

To me Papa Raith would have gone for the kill with Harry, not try to get the ball rolling.  I can see Papa teaching VS, but He would have started screaming "Kill him! Kill him!  KILL HIM!!!" once Harry got involved because

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he believed that Harry had to die for him to feed again.

I think this would have gone WAY away from Pappa Raith’s nature.  I think he’d still want to use a catspaw and not be so obvious.  Besides, someone already pointed out that he didn’t know Harry was Maggie McCoy’s son.  (I know she’s Maggie Dresden, just wanted to throw that out there.)

Serack – I know in Curses it’s stated that

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Harry love, the Queens of Winter and Summer do not kill mortals and so frown on their followers taking such action, but the High folk of the Tylwyth Teg have no such restrictions

However it does not say that they CAN’T, just that they don’t and frown on their followers doing it.  Self-imposed limitation, not necessarily a “law”.

[Phariah]

I was arguing more about the possibility that the spell didn't belong to the Red Court originally- that somebody may have given it to them to take down Harry/Eb.

Somebody didn't like somebody enough to give Victor the spell, though.  My guess is it was probably Marcone, especially given how Fool Moon turned out.  That may have been an example of good intentions slowly being corrupted- they started out trying to destroy a criminal, and then got so focused on destroying the people that stood in their way?  More likely they were trying to remove the competition, and worked through intermediaries in case somebody got suspicious. 

well don't forget that Victor needed something from the target... hair, nail clippings, blood, ect...  the only reason those people were killed was because Monica's sister was threatening to go to the cops and Marcone. no idea if she told Tommy Tom so he had to got too. Linda was seen talking to Dresden and was planning on blackmailing them. mean while the rat Gimpy still hadn't gotten anything for you to use the spell on Victor with, no hair or nail clippings. until Dresden became a real pain by defeating your demon so you had Gimpy get some of Dresden's hair anyway possible. but yeah having the Beckitts in your group as a super charger to focus their hatred for Marcone seems like it was Marcone as your main target from the start.

[Serack]

However it does not say that they CAN’T, just that they don’t and frown on their followers doing it.  Self-imposed limitation, not necessarily a “law”.

Bob's eyelights narrowed until they almost went out, then brightened again after a moment as the skull began to speak.  "A Sidhe Knight is a mortal," Bob said.  "A champion of one of the Sidhe Courts.  He gets powers in line with his Court, and he's the only one who is allowed to act in affairs not directly related to the Sidhe."
"Meaning?"
"Meaning that if one of the Queens wants an outsider dead, her Knight is the trigger man."
I frowned.  "Hang on a minute.  You mean that the queens can't personally gun down anyone who isn't in their Court?"
"Not unless the target does something stupid like make an open-ended bargain without even trying to trade a baby for-"
"Off topic, Bob.  Do I or don't I have to worry about getting killed this time around?"
"Of course you do," Bob said in a cheerful tone.  "It just means that the Queen isn't allowed to actually, personally end your life."

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Except we know from the end of Changes that Martin, as a Red court half-vamp priest saw the ritual, or read about it, and used that as the basis for his scheme to double-bluff and destroy the RC.  This doesn't mesh well with the idea that it's something that hadn't been tested until some no-name newb sorceror in Chicago used storm/sex power to run it.

I'm not convinced that because Martin was a sleeper for years means that the precise shape of the end of Changes was his definite or only plan for all that time; also, I can believe that it was a fairly obscure ritual that he knew about and knew they would find or indeed planted for them to find, but that the Red Court would still want a test run on,

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Then I remembered that Jim has said that he really enjoyed writing Backup because it allowed him to go into the background of the

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Oblivion Wars

, which was something he had really been wanting to do but couldn't do from Harry's perspective for obvious reasons. 
(..)
So, we have WoJ that Jim wrote the

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Oblivion Wars

into Backup because they are an actual part of the DV that Harry is unaware of.

I am not inclined to see the second as implied in the first, because I can see Jim enjoying being able to write about Thomas being mindgamed in ways that can't be done from harry's POV.