Qualifications for a sword of the cross?

[Drulinda]

Not sure if this has been discussed elswhere but can anybody say if a character must be atleast part mortal to hold one of the swords or can a complete non human potentially do it as well? For ex if susan became full RC but continued to feel the kind of

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love that let her hold onto the sword as a half vamp

would it matter that she wasnt human anymore?

[Drachasor]

I'd say if the character would be an NPC, then they can't be a Knight of the Cross.  You need to at least have a positive refresh.  Given that their focus is largely on human interests and convincing people to not be evil, I think the White God has a strong preference towards Knights being human, but it wouldn't be impossible for a non-human Knight to exist.

Red Court Vampires are pretty explicitly NPC in the rules.  Now if you want something different in your game and everyone is ok with it, then I suppose it could be possible.  Note, however, that they'd have to find a way to satisfy their need for blood and they'd have a pretty easy way to lose their ability to use the Sword.  Overall I'd say it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have a creature with a feeding dependency of any sort using one of the Swords.  Also, there's the very, very big problem that a RC would have because Holy items are their catch. 

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Susan was only able to use one because it was the sword of love and she focused on the love she had for her daughter.  It would be very, very, very hard for a Red Court -- or anyone -- to always maintain such an emotional focus.

[sinker]

Red Court Vampires are pretty explicitly NPC in the rules.

I haven't seen anything in either book that says red court vampires can't be PC's...

[Mal_Luck]

I haven't seen anything in either book that says red court vampires can't be PC's...

Red Court vampires are evil monsters who eat children. That and they are -11 base refresh (thus monster / ruled by your nature in Submerged). It comes with the territory. If you want to play a good vamp you invent a Soul/Goodness/Conscious power like the Gifted With Soul or perhaps a often compelled HC/Trouble and then if you want to play in Submerged you've got to figure out how to get your cost down to -9.

As for Susan being loaned the sword, I'd put that under the "loaning IoPs" section. Someone pays a Fate Point to use the sword.

[Drachasor]

I haven't seen anything in either book that says red court vampires can't be PC's...

It's more of a lore thing than anything else.  You become a Red Court vampire by being overwhelmed by the demon inside you and killing someone -- the demon seems to work the same for everyone (e.g. evil monster).  Now, granted, the idea of Red Courts not having "free will" is more than a little questionable from a logical standpoint, but that's why I said one should avoid considering metaphysics.  I suppose one could argue that their nature doesn't allow as much moral breadth as human nature, but one can't really prove that, I don't think.  Anyhow, I don't really disagree with your statement, but I'd say that Red Court Vamps not being PCs is at least assumed by lore, imho.

As for Susan being loaned the sword, I'd put that under the "loaning IoPs" section. Someone pays a Fate Point to use the sword.

More like a Temporary Power, since no one owns the IoP at that point.

[InFerrumVeritas]

RCIs are still pretty human.  They just don't typically last long.

RCVs are demons with human shape.  The sword's presence is uncomfortable and touching it hurts them quite badly. 

Which can use a holy sword?  I suppose either if you have a compelling enough character, but I'd lean heavily away from the latter.

[Becq]

It seems clear to me that a RCV cannot carry (let alone wield) a Sword of the Cross, any more that they can bath in holy water.  Since RCIs share a watered-down version of the RCV weaknesses, it seems unlikely that they would fare much better.

I haven't seen anything in either book that says red court vampires can't be PC's...

Consider YS80:
"If at any point the character kills another human and drinks its blood, he must immediately “upgrade” to a full Red Court Vampire (OW87). This invariably results in turning the character into an NPC, and an evil one at that."

[vultur]

Since RCIs share a watered-down version of the RCV weaknesses, it seems unlikely that they would fare much better.

Except that

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in Changes, Susan - while infected - does just fine wielding Amoracchius.

[Drachasor]

Except that

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in Changes, Susan - while infected - does just fine wielding Amoracchius.

That RCI does have issues.  There's burning if they don't have love in their heart (the sword used is the sword of love).  So I think that fits under "unlikely to fare much better" -- going by lore it would be essentially impossible to find an RCI that could use any sword for an extended period of time.

[kihon]

I do not see how a RCV could be a Knight of the Cross.  Not in the Dresenverse.  No question there - it seems pretty clear.  The Knights serve the White God.

[lordoracle]

Also, while it's only in theory at the moment, it

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appears that the prospect also is descended of royalty. Shiro was the descendant of the last king of Okinawa, Michael of Charlamange, and Sanya of Saladin

. If this holds true, and it means that Murphy must also be. Too much of a coincidence for the last 3 knights all to fall under this for it not to be so. But that is a matter of background and not game mechanics.

[Htiffirg87]

I would say that the Template Champion of God is a very good indicator of what's required to be true wielder as far as qualifications go. Any other powers that the character has beyond those is just extra powers. Being Loaned the sword for specific instances is different, which is what I think the case was regarding

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Susan's use of the sword.

[lordoracle]

I agree.

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When Harry loaned Susan the sword, she hesitated because the last time she touched it, it burned her.

I would say that being loaned the sword would require a temp aspect which would support their being worthy to use it.

I would say that the Template Champion of God is a very good indicator of what's required to be true wielder as far as qualifications go. Any other powers that the character has beyond those is just extra powers. Being Loaned the sword for specific instances is different, which is what I think the case was regarding

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Susan's use of the sword.

[SunlessNick]

Regarding loaning: 

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Harry had also been entrusted with the Swords specifically for the purpose of passing them on to the worthy.

  A loan under those circumstances is probably - to make, and for the recipient to the use the Sword - than in the average case.

[Masurao]

If you'd like to see a vampire, or other nasty-bad, with a relic akin to a Sword of the Cross, you might consider Longinus' Spear (also known as the Spear of Destiny). Seeing as how it was used to check and see if Christ was really dead, it was stained with his blood, giving it the properties of a holy relic, without the requirements to its wielder. In many a popular myth the Nazi's, or Hitler in specific, were said to have held the Spear, only starting to lose, after they lost it. (Paradoxic, neh?)

Another fun, though random tidbit: the legend of the spear is first referenced in the Gospel of... *drum roll* Nicodemus! How's that for some coincidence?