Spiritual Harm

[devonapple]

I agree, but my question was not about killing that way, it was about social consequences by severing the connection of souls. Memories and such would still be intact, but something would still be missing.

I can see the desired rhetorical point, but the actual execution (turning people against the target because their soul-connection was severed or otherwise polluted) sounded pretty much like mind tampering with a different special effect.

Someone holding a piece of your soul because he is your friend could be turned into an enemy that way, or severing the connection could make him... not forget, but you are no longer the friend you were, you are just "that guy I know" to him now. Social consequences by cutting into the soul. Is that prohibited under the laws or is that a very shadowy grey area?

This is changing another human's behavior. Fundamentally Lawbreaker. Clever, certainly, but not enough to sidestep the intent of the Lawbreaker mechanism.

[sinker]

I don't know. I'm reminded of the bit where Jim (or Fred? My memory is hazy) talks about how intent matters when breaking the laws, but what matters more is the reality. Whether or not the person actually broke the law. Has someone been enthralled? No, the person's will and mind are untouched and still their own. No one was killed. It might fall under physical transformation, but the more I think about it the more that seems all wrong. And if we go off of Haru's description then we definitely didn't break the third law. Five, six and seven are also out, so I'm not sure it would be lawbreaking. Wrong and evil, definitely, but lawbreaking? I don't think so. It's definitely an interesting idea/question.

[devonapple]

Has someone been enthralled? No, the person's will and mind are untouched and still their own.

And this is where I disagree. Their will HAS been touched if the final result is "X isn't as close a friend as before" and they didn't come to that on their own.

[sinker]

It just seems to me like it's still their decision, still their will. You're just influencing it. Just like when you put up a wall of fire that forces them to go a specific way, you aren't taking their will, just influencing their decision. After that point they could still become friends with the other person again, in fact it's likely since they found something of worth in that friendship before.

To be honest I'm just not sure. Neither answer seems quite correct to me. As I said, it's a really interesting question.

[wyvern]

YS240: "Here, enthralling is any effort made to change the natural inclinations, choices, and behaviors of another person."
I'd say that pretty clearly makes this a fourth law violation - though I could see statting up an NPC (with lawbreaker stunts) who was under the mistaken impression that it was a successful end-run around the rules.

[Haru]

Devonapple, you're probably right. I still think it's a fun idea, but it would (should) fall under the laws anyway.

You couldn't even create an interesting villain, because he would be beheaded either way. If it were only to the letter of the law, it might work. stupid laws...  

[wyvern]

Sure you can - you just have to make them subtle, and the wardens busy.  At which point the question becomes: Do the PCs report this person or not?

Is what they're doing truly evil, or do their good intentions count for anything?  (The books would answer "yes" and "not much", respectively.  But is it deserving of beheading, or should the PCs aim for redemption instead - albeit at the risk of losing their own heads for collusion if the crime ever comes to light?)

[devonapple]

Don't get me wrong: it sounds like an especially subtle means of influence, one which would require the "good guys" to perform research which would, itself, be almost Lawbreaking - and certainly under close scrutiny - in order to ken the source and/or ramifications of this. It'sd make a great adventure idea.

[Masurao]

My take on stealing/disrupting/destroying pieces of soul resting with someone else, would rest on the idea that it is a two-way street. You become friends with someone, help them in time of need, it costs you a bit of soul to go to certain lengths. It restores theirs. And the other way around. Bob says that all sorts of things can restore 'soul', from a hug, to someone saving your life. (Along those lines, at least.)

So, you are bestest friends with someone and an insindious mage somehow alters the piece of your soul with him. You still have some of his soul, by that reasoning, and it wouldn't be altered. It could be healed through time and effort. As such, I'd rather see it as dimming that part of the soul, unless you somehow manage to erase both of the exchanged pieces of soul. That in turn, would clearly be altering the mind, as it is counter-intuitive to stop liking someone just like that.

For story and/or game purposes, however, I wouldn't even go there. The best you should be able to do by altering 'borrowed soul', is make someone grow colder towards someone else, if you don't want to affect their mind directly and it probably isn't worth the effort. Any individual with a bit of self-reflection would simply assume he/she had an off-day and apologize sometime later. Simply removing memories of friendship altogether, would truly destroy the borrowed soul, but obviously be Lawbreaking.

Another question you might wish to consider, what good would it do you to alter someone's soul, wherever it might reside? Bob noted that humans always get so worked up about their souls, while it isn't that much of an issue. Besides, beings like the angels,

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supposedly composed of 'pure soul',

might detect such magic and object to it. It might be an interesting hook, but I would make sure it is never considered worth delving too deep in the matters of the soul, as the mind hovers so close-by.

My €0,02...