Spiritual Harm

[ways and means]

One of my players who recently bought hellfire asked if he could use it too attempt to rip someones soul from their body in a fatal and nasty kind off way, I at the time said yes and decided that spiritual damage would probably cause mental stress rather than physical. But when the PC then took out the enemy I was torn wether it was appriate to give the NPC the physical taken out concequence of death from a mental attack. Do people think spiritual harm would fall under mental or physical stress and does damage to an enemies soul count as lawbreaking if the enemy isn't killed?  

[13th~Nineteen]

Well taking someone out mentally normally just drives them crazy and forces a concession. As to whether or not tearing out someone's soul would be lawbreaking the answer from me would be yes. It really depends on the flavor of the attack but it probably breaks the law against invading another's mind.

[EdgeOfDreams]

Well, I could certainly imagine a mental consequence / taken out result so severe that it effectively renders the target brain dead.  A soulless body might simply appear to be a coma, from which they never recover.

[Haru]

Well, a taken out result of an attack on the soul could result in an intact body without a soul. If it will still function on auto or will go completely limb would be up to you, but the person that inhabited the body would be dead. To make it interesting, some malevolent entity from the far reaches of the nevernever might be attracted by the smell of the hellfire and find a perfectly good body to inhabid and enter the real world. That, of course would not happen instantly, so the empty shell would stay there for a while, maybe even be discovered by the police, examined and suddenly the entity inhabits the body and breaks free.

To make it more interesting, it is going to seek out the one who made it possible for him to enter the world and kill him, because he would be the one who could send him back. It doesn't have to be like that, but the entity believes this, so it is going to try and kill the character anyway.

[sinker]

Amusingly enough we can look at soulfire for the answer to that question. In the books it's been established (I think Bob said it, but I'm not sure)

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that Harry could kill himself by using too much soulfire, and since he's using his soul to fuel it

I think it's safe to assume that anything else that removes or damages someone's soul is capable of killing them.

Also mental stress works just as well as anything else in this case, and the taken out result usually has more to do with how you got there than what stress you were dealing. Keep in mind though that some things don't have a soul, and some things have a couple of souls (kinda).

[Haru]

Uh, I just thought of something else:
There is an entry where Bob talks about the soul and says it is all over the place. What if those pieces are still connected, and you could sever or change them? Someone holding a piece of your soul because he is your friend could be turned into an enemy that way, or severing the connection could make him... not forget, but you are no longer the friend you were, you are just "that guy I know" to him now. Social consequences by cutting into the soul. Is that prohibited under the laws or is that a very shadowy grey area?

[devonapple]

Uh, I just thought of something else:
There is an entry where Bob talks about the soul and says it is all over the place. What if those pieces are still connected, and you could sever or change them? Someone holding a piece of your soul because he is your friend could be turned into an enemy that way, or severing the connection could make him... not forget, but you are no longer the friend you were, you are just "that guy I know" to him now. Social consequences by cutting into the soul. Is that prohibited under the laws or is that a very shadowy grey area?

At that point, you are tampering with OTHER peoples' minds, albeit for the goal of indirectly complicating your target's life.

Edited to add: Which is most likely Lawbreaking. Subtle, hard to track, but definitely on the table as something which personally warps the spellcaster.

[sinker]

I don't know, that's a weird question. You aren't technically altering their mind, and you aren't even altering their soul, just the portion of someone else's soul that rests in them. I guess it might be transforming another person...

[tetrasodium]

Mwahahaaaaaaa It sounds like it might break a few laws
- First law: Never take a life, self explanatory application
- Second: Never transform another:  I got the impression that kemmlerite type "true magic" as infused by uber-bob was fueled by

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souls

(as was the

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darkhallow

).  Transforming their essence to energy could qualify as second law depending on interpretation.
- Third Law: Never invade the thoughts of another:  Ok it depends on if the process imparts knowledge or could potentially be considered invasion
- Fourth Law, Never Enthrall Another:A soulless husk might be practically enthralled and could qualify.  I think(if tv is to be believed) Some evil voodoo stuff for creating zombies involves stealing the soul and making the body obey because you have control over the soul.
-Fifth law, never reach beyond the borders of life.  Ripping the fires of creation from someone and potentially interrupting the process of what that energy should go through could qualify... Ok it depends on your interpretation.

Ok it probably doesn't violate the sixth or seventh laws.. but hey how much fun can you expect from a single spell .  I'd probably allow it and say it breaks rules 1 & 2+? depending on how easy the kill is

Depending on how you decide a soulless husk acts, it might also be breaking the first & second laws along with possibly the fourth or fifth depending on the effect.  If it kills, go with fifth... but probably not the first time*.  If it leaves behind a soulless husk void of drive then definitely fifth.  


*Tearing out the fires of creation & leaving them floating around to disperse/linger on their own instead of taking whatever normal process it takes is sure to attract something's attention.Interrupting normal dispersal/recycling process is likely to cause some kind of problem after it's done too often.  Look up Guff of Souls sometime, there is plenty of religions that say the soul gets reborn/recycled though.  I'm sure you can think of something fun and suitably fitting for your campaign.

[Set Abominae]

For some reason I read that as "Spiritual Ham".

Perhaps I'm needing a bacon fix...

Ignore me, carry on.

[Becq]

While opinions vary, mine is that *any* use of True Magic to cause mental damage is Lawbreaking.  Why?  Because mental damage, to a varying extent, changes your mind, soul, or sense of self.

In any case, killing someone by ripping their soul out of their body is *absolutely* Lawbreaking.

[Becq]

For some reason I read that as "Spiritual Ham".

Perhaps you'd like to add some Chicken Soup for the Soul to your meal?

[Haru]

In any case, killing someone by ripping their soul out of their body is *absolutely* Lawbreaking.

I agree, but my question was not about killing that way, it was about social consequences by severing the connection of souls. Memories and such would still be intact, but something would still be missing.

Chicken Soup for the Soul

I want a casefile with that name. Pure Awesome 

Maybe a trilogy:
- Spiritual Ham
- Chicken Soup for the Soul
- Bacon of Hope

[Becq]

Maybe a trilogy:
- Spiritual Ham
- Chicken Soup for the Soul
- Bacon of Hope

You mean Bacon of Hope? 

[Haru]

You mean Bacon of Hope?  

I totally forgot that comic, great 
But I kind of had a story involving a true believer butcher in mind, which, as I now notice, is even more perfect, than I originally thought