Check My Math: Scaling Opposition

[devonapple]

I know there is some contention with the rules for Scaling the Opposition.

I've got a group of 5 players - all Supernatural in some way or another - who are at the 7-refresh "Up To Your Waist" power level. Each has spent 6 refresh on powers: three Wizard Apprentices and two Werefolks.

I'm doing the math on the possible baddies for a new episode, and got this:

Nameless Cultists: up to 15 Refresh each
Lieutenant (roughly equal opposition): 30 Refresh
Main Villain: up to 45 Refresh

I'm... worried for my players. Am I unduly worried?

[ways and means]

I wouldn't put the mooks (nameless cultists) at a higher refresh than the party but otherwise seems reasonable.

[UmbraLux]

I'm... worried for my players. Am I unduly worried?

Depends on how creative they are and how generous you are with compels.    If they find declarations and maneuvers easy, have the fate points to use aspects, and can leverage scene / city aspects they'll go through powerful opponents easily.  On the other hand, if they have few fate points and rely primarily on rolling simple attacks they may well have issues defeating pure mortals.  

[sinker]

Your math seems to be just fine. I'm with UmbraLux though. If they know how to leverage the system they should be fine, but they may struggle if they don't know how it works.

[Haru]

At 45 refresh the villain should be able to take out a whole city block without breaking a sweat, so (to me) that seems extremely high. And (other than refinement), won't you run out of powers at some point? The scarecrow is listed at -25 refresh, and even the -19 refresh version would still be pretty tough to deal with, I think.

I like to go quantity over quality in occasions like this. Look at the battle at arctis tor, part of the group had to stay behind to keep the mooks (and maybe even some lieutenants) away from those that entered the tower. If you can create a similar scene, you can easily scale the final villain down without taking away the challenge. And mooks are easy to come by, so you can increase their numbers any time (or throw a lieutenant or two into the mix), if you want to increase the pressure on the team. I especially like to do it like this, because the pressure is distributed more evenly. If a 45 refresh character concentrates his fire on 1 character at 7 refresh, he is probably going to end up as a piece of charcoal on the floor without a chance. If you distribute it more equally, every character has a chance to shine and they won't have to take hits that are quite that hard.

I know that is not exactly checking your math, more like... proposing a different formula. Hope it helps anyway.

[Becq]

Assuming those were three seperate encounters, I agree with your math (ie, that's what is suggested on YS334).  I also agree with your concern, even assuming you've planned those as three seperate encounters.

As Haru mentioned, I suspect that you'd have better with several smaller opponents.  For the boss fight, take your 'budget' of 45 refresh and divide it among a boss, a lieutenant, and some mooks.  The PCs will still be outmatched in a straight-out fight, but you wanted a 'challenging' fight, which requires some strategy to succeed with.

[UmbraLux]

Just be careful with numbers of opponents.  Numerous mooks played intelligently have more potential than a single stronger opponent - largely due to the action currency.  Just consider half a dozen one stunt humans maneuvering before another attacks...their end result is probably far higher than a single opponent with the same total refresh.

[Becq]

Just be careful with numbers of opponents.  Numerous mooks played intelligently have more potential than a single stronger opponent - largely due to the action currency.  Just consider half a dozen one stunt humans maneuvering before another attacks...their end result is probably far higher than a single opponent with the same total refresh.

True.  I was thinking in terms of, for example, building block powers and defensive abilities.  A single opponent can buy Mythic Toughness and Mythic Recovery for -12 refresh (or less), whereas a group of mooks would have to make do with far less.

[Sanctaphrax]

I wouldn't even bother with the "Scaling The Opposition" rules if I were you.

Just make a challenge that seems reasonable and adjust the difficulty on the fly with FP and consequences.

You use a communal "bad guy" FP pool, right? How much of that you let the opposition use will have a massive influence on how tough they are.