Thaumaturgy in Combat (Again...)

[zcthu3]

Hi all,

I've been playing a Dresden Game with two wizards. To help differentiate themselves, one has specialised as an evoker and the other as a thaumaturgist. Now, the thaumaturgist has a lot of decent enchanted items, but has been enquiring about casting other thaumaturgy spells in a combat situation.

I know this has come up before, and that the general consensus is that thaumaturgy in combat shouldn't be allowed (unless it's sponsored), but I don't want to just say no, particulaly given that "quick and dirty" thaumaturgy does appear to happen in the books. Given that, we've been discussing how we might allow this, without making thaumaturgy too good relative to evocation and sponsored magic.

We've come up with the following:

Thaumaturgy is generally described in the rulebooks as taking minutes to cast and the general rule of thumb is not to let players cast it in combat situations, that being the province of evocation and/or enchanted items instead.

On one hand I agree with this approach, however on the other hand it is, in my opinion, somewhat inconsistent with the source material.

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For example Harry manages to cast very simple thaumaturgy spell in a few moments behind some cover in order to provide magical protection to Murphy in a combat scene.

It is also inconsistent with the actual game mechanics which state that if the caster’s Lore is greater than the spells complexity then they can cast it with what is on hand. Given that, if the caster can channel sufficient power in one exchange and control it, then they can cast thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation.

This is potentially a problem as it down plays the importance of evocation and sponsored magic (which allows thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation).

On the other hand, typically thaumaturgy spells will be less powerful than those of an evoker as they are limited by three skills (being Lore (= complexity), Conviction (= amount of power able to be channelled) and Discipline (=control)), rather than two for evocation (Conviction and Discipline). On the other hand they can be cast for one less stress (i.e. so long as the power to be channelled doesn’t exceed Conviction + Refinement/Focus bonuses) and, in general, last longer.

Given this, I think it is necessary to slow thaumaturgy in combat down, without removing it entirely. I also think the ritualised nature needs to be played up. Given the above, an in discussion with the primary thaumaturgist in our group we came up with the following time frame for casting thaumaturgy spells in combat:

Requirement for casting thaumaturgy in combat: Complexity of spell must be less than caster’s Lore.
Exchange 1: Form and Empower Circle to contain spell;
Exchange 2: Gather Ingredients for Spell (which must be on hand, see requirement for casting);
Exchange 3: Channels Power;
(Exchange 4+: Channels more Power if necessary).

This process can be sped up by “rushing” the process, e.g.:
Exchange 1: Form and Empower Circle to contain spell;
Exchange 2: Gather Ingredients for Spell as a supplementary action and Channel Power at -1 to Discipline;
(Exchange 3+: Channels more Power if necessary).

Or by having assistance with the creation of the Circle, i.e.:
Exchange 1: The caster empowers a pre-formed circle (e.g. drawn by another character) and gather’s ingredients as a supplementary action;
Exchange 2: Channels Power;
(Exchange 3+: Channels more Power if necessary).

Thus it takes a minimum of two actions and either a Discipline roll at -1 by the caster, or a second character’s action (to draw the circle) to cast the spell. Furthermore, we ruled that if a character chooses to defend themselves, they must start the ritual again, or if they choose not to defend themselves they must make a Discipline roll with a difficulty equal to the shifts of damage inflicted to not lose the spell.

This still means that Sponsored Magic is useful re Thaumaturgy at the Speed of Evocation as it enables you to use Thaumaturgy in a single exchange thereby forgoing the risk of having your spell disrupted or making yourself a target.

Before implementing this formally in our game, however, I would like some comments, particularly whether the timeframes outlined are reasonable, of whether they should be increased.

[Chris_Fougere]

Its ultimately your game and you're free to muck about.  For my $0.02 though, the player who chose to specialize in Thaum made their choice.  They have "lots of decent enchanted weapons" which should be their combat bread and butter. 

In my game, I use two different time lengths for exchanges in the case of magic.  Evocation uses the standard combat exchange (probably a few seconds).  Thaumaturgy uses exchanges of 5-10 minutes.  In theory you can cast a ritual in combat this way, but its going to require your buddies to hold off the monster for a few minutes, not merely a few seconds to buy you time.

[InFerrumVeritas]

I ran into the same thing.  Here's what I came up with (which I'm fairly certain is actually RAW).

Typically, Thaumaturgy takes "a few minutes."  That's 4 steps up the time chart from "instant" like evocation.  So for any Thaumaturgy spell, you can do the ritual instantly (not counting additional rounds for gathering more power if needed) by increasing the complexity by 4.  You can do the ritual in a single round (a few moments) by increasing it by 3 instead (but this means it will take at least two exchanges to cast, as you'd have to gather power on the second).  Increasing it by 2 would mean you could do the ritual in two exchanges (taking at least three to cast, gathering power on the third, although this is an estimation it seems fair).

If someone helps you do the ritual, that's best represented by a Lore roll to declare "Assistance from Friend" on the caster.  This would then be tagged for a +2, allowing you to meet the greater complexity easier. 

So to break it down like you did, although these are just estimations of flavor:

Rushed Thaumaturgy:
Increase complexity by 2.
Round 1: Draw Circle, carefully.
Round 2: Set up ritual objects.
Rounds 3+: Gather power and cast.

Fast Thaumaturgy:
Increase complexity by 3.
Round 1: Draw circle and imagine ritual objects.  Or grab ritual object and imagine circle.
Rounds 2+: Gather power and cast.

Mental Thaumaturgy:
Increase complexity by 4.
Round 1: Imagine ritual, gather power and cast.

The important thing with the flavor above is that the spell becomes more complex because you're mentally preparing more of it.  The ritual is the construct to help you control the energy.  Harry has said you can do this in your mind, it's just harder.

Now, in combat, it's likely you'll get help.  Here's example flavor for that.

Aided Rushed Thaumaturgy:
Increase complexity by 3 (then tag "Assistance from X" for +2)
Round 1 (Friend): Friend draws circle OR aligns ritual objects.
Round 1 (Caster): Draws circle OR aligns ritual objects (whichever not done by ally).
Rounds 2+: Gather power and cast. (Friend may assist, adding taggable aspects to boost control roll).

Aided Thaumaturgy:
Increase complexity by 4 (then tag "Assistance from X" for +2)
Round 1 (Friend): Friend quickly sets up ritual.
Rounds 1+ (Caster): Caster mentally completes ritual, gathers power, and casts.

Quick Group Thaumaturgy:
Increase complexity by 4 (then tag "Assistance from X" and Assistance from other X" for +2 and +2)
Round 1 (First friend): Friend draws circle.
Round 1 (second friend): Friend two sets up ritual objects.
Found 1 (caster): Gathers power and casts.

Of course, to provide assistance, a friend must make a Lore maneuver, typically two shifts less than the complexity of the spell.  I'd allow interesting things to happen if I were the GM and they failed.

Rolls complexity-3. 
"Oh, that's okay.  You didn't do much but it should work."  Scribble down "Faulty Circle" or "Wrong Ritual" aspect.
Caster completes spell.  Hand him a fate point.
"So your demon appears, but he just walks out of the circle." OR "Instead of the lord of dreams, you see a crow." OR "Your fireball shoots up into the sky...and you don't see it come down anywhere near by."  "Your enemies all disappear."  etc

[UmbraLux]

Before implementing this formally in our game, however, I would like some comments, particularly whether the timeframes outlined are reasonable, of whether they should be increased.

You've alluded to "gathering ingredients" however I'm not sure you put the same importance on it that I would.  Thaumaturgy's limitations include a need for links and symbols.  You can't target a spell without a link and you can't form the spell without symbols.  Consider

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Harry's blinding & muzzling of the loup garou - he gathers blood for the link and a stuffed dog as a symbol.

  Only then does he draw the circle, gather power, and cast the spell.

Gathering all the ingredients you need as a supplemental action seems a bit much.  I'd suggest gathering specific ingredients for the spell to be cast and taking whatever time that takes...searching for blood after everyone is wounded may be easy but finding a hair because there isn't any blood yet probably isn't.

[devonapple]

I ran into the same thing.  Here's what I came up with (which I'm fairly certain is actually RAW).

Typically, Thaumaturgy takes "a few minutes."  That's 4 steps up the time chart from "instant" like evocation.  So for any Thaumaturgy spell, you can do the ritual instantly (not counting additional rounds for gathering more power if needed) by increasing the complexity by 4.  You can do the ritual in a single round (a few moments) by increasing it by 3 instead (but this means it will take at least two exchanges to cast, as you'd have to gather power on the second).  Increasing it by 2 would mean you could do the ritual in two exchanges (taking at least three to cast, gathering power on the third, although this is an estimation it seems fair).

I like this so far - it uses the existing rules in a new way.

[zcthu3]

You've alluded to "gathering ingredients" however I'm not sure you put the same importance on it that I would.  Thaumaturgy's limitations include a need for links and symbols.  You can't target a spell without a link and you can't form the spell without symbols.  Consider

(click to show/hide)

Harry's blinding & muzzling of the loup garou - he gathers blood for the link and a stuffed dog as a symbol.

  Only then does he draw the circle, gather power, and cast the spell.

Gathering all the ingredients you need as a supplemental action seems a bit much.  I'd suggest gathering specific ingredients for the spell to be cast and taking whatever time that takes...searching for blood after everyone is wounded may be easy but finding a hair because there isn't any blood yet probably isn't.

I'd agree with you except that the rules specifically state that you have the ingredients on hand if it is a spell with a complexity less than their Lore. There is no need to spend time gathering specific ingredients, the character can make do with a piece of string etc.

[zcthu3]

Its ultimately your game and you're free to muck about.  For my $0.02 though, the player who chose to specialize in Thaum made their choice.  They have "lots of decent enchanted weapons" which should be their combat bread and butter. 

In my game, I use two different time lengths for exchanges in the case of magic.  Evocation uses the standard combat exchange (probably a few seconds).  Thaumaturgy uses exchanges of 5-10 minutes.  In theory you can cast a ritual in combat this way, but its going to require your buddies to hold off the monster for a few minutes, not merely a few seconds to buy you time.

This is the response I expected however, to be honest, I don't think the "minutes" is necessarily supported by the source material where Harry does cast low complexity thaumaturgy spells

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such as when he casts a low complexity protection spell on Murphy

in a matter of seconds rather than minutes (i.e. it took a few combat exchanges).

I think the important thing to remember is that this is only for those spells less than the character's Lore; i.e. this is not large rituals.

[zcthu3]

I ran into the same thing.  Here's what I came up with (which I'm fairly certain is actually RAW).

Typically, Thaumaturgy takes "a few minutes."  That's 4 steps up the time chart from "instant" like evocation.  So for any Thaumaturgy spell, you can do the ritual instantly (not counting additional rounds for gathering more power if needed) by increasing the complexity by 4.  You can do the ritual in a single round (a few moments) by increasing it by 3 instead (but this means it will take at least two exchanges to cast, as you'd have to gather power on the second).  Increasing it by 2 would mean you could do the ritual in two exchanges (taking at least three to cast, gathering power on the third, although this is an estimation it seems fair).

If someone helps you do the ritual, that's best represented by a Lore roll to declare "Assistance from Friend" on the caster.  This would then be tagged for a +2, allowing you to meet the greater complexity easier.  

So to break it down like you did, although these are just estimations of flavor:
The important thing with the flavor above is that the spell becomes more complex because you're mentally preparing more of it.  The ritual is the construct to help you control the energy.  Harry has said you can do this in your mind, it's just harder.

Now, in combat, it's likely you'll get help.  Here's example flavor for that.
Of course, to provide assistance, a friend must make a Lore maneuver, typically two shifts less than the complexity of the spell.  I'd allow interesting things to happen if I were the GM and they failed.

Thats is very cool, I never thought of doing it like that. I'll run it past the group. Thanks!

[Becq]

I really like the way InFerrumVeritas made use of the time chart for Thaumaturgy.  It's a bit like a system I was trying to put together ... except that his looks like it would work well, and more smoothly, too. 

One of the biggest issues I've been trying to work through is providing a reasonable 'cap' to what can be performed with Thaumaturgy.  Which you've done by setting the difficulty of skill checks at complexity-2.  This seems a bit brutal at first glance, but I'm still mulling it over.  Basically, it means that characters can only effectively contibute via skill checks to rituals with a complexity not much higher than their skill levels, right?  And more complex rituals can only be achieved through sacrifice or invocation of existing aspects, neither of which require rolls.

[InFerrumVeritas]

I really like the way InFerrumVeritas made use of the time chart for Thaumaturgy.  It's a bit like a system I was trying to put together ... except that his looks like it would work well, and more smoothly, too. 

One of the biggest issues I've been trying to work through is providing a reasonable 'cap' to what can be performed with Thaumaturgy.  Which you've done by setting the difficulty of skill checks at complexity-2.  This seems a bit brutal at first glance, but I'm still mulling it over.  Basically, it means that characters can only effectively contibute via skill checks to rituals with a complexity not much higher than their skill levels, right?  And more complex rituals can only be achieved through sacrifice or invocation of existing aspects, neither of which require rolls.

Exactly.  It means even if you've got a group helping you, the best you can do is get +2 per person, but likely they'll have to help each other (at complexity-4 since they're trying to help reach complexity-2) to help you if the spell is extremely complex.  This makes it possible, but not viable.  And yeah, sacrifice and invocation would allow you to get there faster, but you're spending fate points.

I like to design and GM from the standpoint of not saying no to a player but saying, "Okay, here's how you can do that.  Still want to?"  Typically they make the right choice.

[wyvern]

Actually... you want in-combat thaumaturgy?  May I suggest potion slots?

They can have thaumaturgical effects, at complexity up to a maximum of your lore +2 for a single slot potion (if you're willing to accept an appropriate compel).  And they're just a single action to activate.  And, since you don't need to declare what potions you've got ahead of time...

[Belial666]

Here's a submerged sorceror or not-yet-full-wizard that specializes in crafting stats-wise;

Powers:
[-3] Thaumaturgy - specialization +1 crafting power
[-3] Evocation - specialization +1 spirit control
[+0] Focus (from spellcasting powers)  +4 crafting power
[-3] Refinement - specialization +2 crafting frequency, 8 enchanted item slots

Skills:
+5 Lore, Discipline
+4 Conviction, Athletics
+3 Endurance, Alertness
+2 Guns, Weapons, Resources
+1 Fists, Survival, Driving

He has 8 enchanted item slots, each one at Power 10 with 3 uses/day. 4 of them can be standard items (2 offensive, 2 defensive) he usually uses his mental stress to fuel, as if they were spells. The extra uses are for prolonged fights. The other 4 are left for potions. Potions can hold rituals, can be declared that you have them at hand when you need them, and can be enhanced beyond the standard 10 shifts of power this guy gets with Fate points and the like.

So all in all, this guy is a fairly decent combat thaumaturgist through his items. He doesn't really need Evocation (and he's not that good at it) but it was in the sorceror template.

[zcthu3]

Actually... you want in-combat thaumaturgy?  May I suggest potion slots?

They can have thaumaturgical effects, at complexity up to a maximum of your lore +2 for a single slot potion (if you're willing to accept an appropriate compel).  And they're just a single action to activate.  And, since you don't need to declare what potions you've got ahead of time...

No disagreement here, I personally think this is a better way of dealing with the issue of wanting to do thaumaturgy in combat, and I think the player will be relying upon her enchanted items and potions (plus a little evocation).

Having said that, I'm also with InFerrumVeritas, wherein I prefer not to say "no", but rather to say "yes", and here is how it will work.

Given that, having guidelines in place for when someone does want to do thaumaturgy in combat, whether it be because they're trying to do a ritual to save the world while the group is under attack, or because they want to use it as an attack, is incredibly useful. Thanks all.

[Drachasor]

I'd agree with you except that the rules specifically state that you have the ingredients on hand if it is a spell with a complexity less than their Lore. There is no need to spend time gathering specific ingredients, the character can make do with a piece of string etc.

Last I checked, the rules also explicitly say that thematic links are still needed.  If you have a Lore of 5 then you can't do a Power 5 attack on someone you can't see.

On the other hand, if you have some prep time, there's no reason what you couldn't setup some thaumaturgy mines or other spells in an area, so long as you explicitly define what their effect (and target) is ahead of time.


Like someone else said though, the easiest way a Thaumaturgist can handle this is with potions.  That requires no explicit prep time since you can just declare you have a particular potion (as long as it isn't too unreasonable).  You can even tap aspects to make that potion more powerful on the fly.  Pretty handy.

You could also use potions in other ways, potentially.  The obvious is using them to make aspects to tag for a ritual.  You could POTENTIALLY, use them to make a ritual get started up quicker, by tagging for effect.  A potion slot on an item that creates a full-fledged magical circle for a specific purpose or the like.  If the GM approves this second use, you might be able to immediately go to the gathering power phase (as long as the total power of the ritual is within your means, of course).  Still a lot slower than evocation and still harder to get as powerful effects (generally speaking).

[ways and means]

Thamaturgy beyond your law requires serious preperation and so a whole ritual couldn't be done in combat but adding power to the ritual can be done in combat (it even suggest this could add spice to such rituals having the rest of the party protect the ritualist.  so it would be argueably you could prepair a skeleton ritual declerations and all and then do the actual casting in combat with all the inherent risks of fallout that brings.