Is anyone else annoyed by Physical Immunity?

[Sanctaphrax]

@InferrumVeritas + toturi: My opinion on the matter is that fluff requirements should never be used to balance out mechanics. It's bad juju.

@BumblingBear: Stacking Toughness and Immunity seems like a waste of refresh.

@Lanir: Very solid case, except for the bit where you call playing superman boring. Some people probably want to do that, and if possible then the game should make it possible for them to play that way alongside people with different playstyles. Problem is, the current rules don't support that.

@sinker: If something satisfies your catch, then neither power does anything. If something doesn't, then PI will always be better. Using self-inflicted harm as an example is a pretty bad idea in my opinion since self-inflicted harm's interaction with Recovery is usually considered a balance problem. That's why I balance against Toughness + Recovery.

Consider an arbitrary level of Recovery, that healed all damage as you received it. How would it differ from PI?

[Silverblaze]

I feel the need to preface this post with the following:

1. My post may meander but I'll try to keep it as concise and flowing as possible.
2. This is the first (1st) edition of a role playing game.  It will have flaws that will be fixed in the second edition (god/economics willing)
3. Go Go Gadget Wall of Text!


On physical immunity/toughness/mythic powers:

Yes the power as implemented bothers me.   It should be called immunity.  It should be accompanied by a chart of examples – along with refresh cost for the example of immunity.  Example: immunity to fire –4 refresh.

As is Immunity to fire is explained by giving the power – Physical Immunity: -4 fire only [ catch +4 all non fire attacks]

This seems inefficient/confusing.  The fact is many people do not consider magic a physical attack.  Many people assume physical involves kinetic force or similar means of causing damage. 

One could easily model a power for physical immunity that only works on social damage or mental damage as well.  This is why I feel immunity would be a better name and implementation of the power.

Mythic powers are not broken, nor are they NPC purview only…they aren’t for low refresh games though.  Mythic strength is easily the weakest when not paired with other powers or stunts.  Mythic toughness is verily outshined by immunity.  Also it is useless when the catch is satisfied.  Recovery: see toughness; however – I’d rather heal and get back up (playing possum) than seem like superman.  Speed: best!  You can’t damage what you cannot hit.  With a stunt you can take the athletics boost and use it offensively!

None of those powers help against a good (and prepared) spell caster…NONE. 

Sacred guardian:  I agree with Sanctaphrax.  The bane of this system is also its greatest asset: - The ability to modify a power or stunt to fit any item/character.  It makes a very customizable and enjoyable system.  It also means items of power are less special…temple dogs are less special…etc.
 Player 1: My sword has: all are equal before god.
Player 2: I like that that’s why I play a temple dog…it’s similar.
Player 3: I’m a scion of the white god or something…I want both as a power on my character…. plus True Aim!  I’m a walking sword of the cross dog!

I feel some powers and stunts should be exclusive to its origin (in some cases):
Ex: True Aim – items only
Ex: equal before god – item only or super pure/holy npcs…rare end game powers for PC’s
Ex: sacred guardian – guardian animals or golems only…temple dog PC is ok…it’s quite a challenge to play something with no opposable digit and the inability to speak in most cases.

I love that the game is customizable and that any of what I said can be ignored easily by system…but allowing anyone/anything to do anything as well as anyone else---.well that makes some things less special. 


On breaking the game/system:

Reader’s Digest Version to follow -

Wizards do it all by themselves.

A well-made spell caster can outshine anyone else.  I concur that breaking the system is easy.  The system was designed for story not tightly bound game mechanics.  That’s fine.  Don’t get shocked when a well-designed character takes most of the challenges in a given venue (mental, social, physical…depending on what they are munchkined out for…and laughs it off)  It truly is easy.  I’m going to bet the last drop of my blood Belial666, Bumblingbear, and or myself could make a character that would challenge a GM to defeat.  It can be done quite easily with the ability to make stunts also. (caveat: GM god mode…yes the GM wins…but by RAW – the system can be broken, finagled, steamrolled, raped {I hate that use of the word rape but it is applicable in the way that against the will of GM/designer/players the game is perverted to another’s will etc. into submission.})

A stunt monkey or a grappling machine can be almost as good as a spell caster.

Character with the following would be pretty mean:  evocation, thaumaturgy, sponsored magic, modular abilities 4 points or more, refinement in any number)

A character with sacred guardian, weapon focus, weapon specialization, and true aim…pretty mean fighter.  Pretty low refresh too.

I’m certain I could go on for pages about how to break systems…I haven’t found one I couldn’t run roughshod over.  There’s no point.  In the end if the group is happy and Gm feels in control…everything is peachy.


Right?

[sinker]

Consider an arbitrary level of Recovery, that healed all damage as you received it. How would it differ from PI?

Mostly it would depend on how mechanically it did that. If it simply healed all stress before you take it, then there is no difference. However if it mechanically acted like recovery but much more it would be nothing similar. Recovery does only one thing in combat. It heals 1-3 consequences per scene as a supplemental action (during the scene). Even if you could heal an unlimited number of consequences in a scene you could still be taken out for several reasons. One being massive damage (I.E. 25 or more stress), another being simply that they couldn't keep up with the damage as it takes one supplemental action to heal one consequence (I.E. if you're taking two or more consequences per round, easily done with multiple opponents) and of course if they choose not to take consequences (though that one's a bit irrelevant). That is the only effect recovery has in combat. Even if you had Recovery many levels higher than mythic, there would be little mechanical difference to mythic and absolutely no similarity to PI.

If a player asked me this same question (I.E. "I want to heal all damage instantly and as it happens")looking to buy powers my immediate response (and that I would guess of many people) would be "You're looking for the Physical Immunity power. Take that and simply "Reskin" it as a ridiculously fast healing." Would I be wrong?

Personally I can't see much of a reason to have higher levels of recovery than mythic, other than more consequences recovered per scene (and maybe higher consequences, depending on the power level and what consequences people are taking regularly). You can already recover any consequence other than extreme immediately at the end of the scene, and never require sleep. I don't see how you could make another level worth 2 refresh (or even one really).

[JayTee]

The way i've always seen Physical Immunity is the character is Immune to anything you could reasonably get your hands on, not Immune to everything, Period. I drew this conclusion based on two facts:

1) Looking at the other toughness based powers, they slowly and steadily make you Immune to things that could be carried by one person. Inhuman Toughness makes you invulnerable to small weapons, Supernatural makes you invulnerable to conventional weapons and Mythical makes you invulnerable to Military grade weapons.

1) In the Dresden universe magic follows the laws of physics, and if physics has taught me anything, its that everything breaks if you hit it hard enough.

For example, the Ogre who is Immune to Magic mentioned above. Throw that thing at a single Wizard and he's going to have to get creative with his spellcraft, as he simply can't bring enough mystical force to bare against the Ogre's resilience. On the other hand throw that Ogre at the Senior White Council members and a dozen Wardens, something you usually wont see in a game, and that Ogre is going to be blown to chunks, with those chunks blown to bits and then finally those bits pulverized into individual particles!

So, if I'm being chanced by something with Physical Immunity to physical damage, I'm not going to be able to hurt it with anything I can get my hands on with any degree of ease. What do I do? Look for the closest building I can drop on it, or drop it off of, bonus points for Invoking the Cube-Square Law if it has Hulking Size!

[Ala Alba]

If a player asked me this same question (I.E. "I want to heal all damage instantly and as it happens")looking to buy powers my immediate response (and that I would guess of many people) would be "You're looking for the Physical Immunity power. Take that and simply "Reskin" it as a ridiculously fast healing." Would I be wrong?

I believe that's how it works for ol' Nick in the books. I seem to remember him actually being affected by attacks, with it just not sticking.

[Lanir]

@Sanctaphrax: Okay, you have me there. Someone would want to play Superman. I'm pretty sure concepts like that don't have the longevity that a similar concept with some level of toughness instead would.

@Silverblaze: I had some similar thoughts but hadn't really formed them well enough to write down. My basic thought was to do like some other games do and segregate it out into several separate areas and powers associated with those areas. If you wanted to be immune to a bunch of things you'd buy multiple powers.

[InFerrumVeritas]

@InferrumVeritas + toturi: My opinion on the matter is that fluff requirements should never be used to balance out mechanics. It's bad juju.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but that is the way the Fate system is designed.  If it weren't for that, all powers would be Stunts.  It is one of the examples of fluff and mechanics being blurred together.

[ways and means]

The way i've always seen Physical Immunity is the character is Immune to anything you could reasonably get your hands on, not Immune to everything, Period. I drew this conclusion based on two facts:

1) Looking at the other toughness based powers, they slowly and steadily make you Immune to things that could be carried by one person. Inhuman Toughness makes you invulnerable to small weapons, Supernatural makes you invulnerable to conventional weapons and Mythical makes you invulnerable to Military grade weapons.

1) In the Dresden universe magic follows the laws of physics, and if physics has taught me anything, its that everything breaks if you hit it hard enough.

For example, the Ogre who is Immune to Magic mentioned above. Throw that thing at a single Wizard and he's going to have to get creative with his spellcraft, as he simply can't bring enough mystical force to bare against the Ogre's resilience. On the other hand throw that Ogre at the Senior White Council members and a dozen Wardens, something you usually wont see in a game, and that Ogre is going to be blown to chunks, with those chunks blown to bits and then finally those bits pulverized into individual particles!

So, if I'm being chanced by something with Physical Immunity to physical damage, I'm not going to be able to hurt it with anything I can get my hands on with any degree of ease. What do I do? Look for the closest building I can drop on it, or drop it off of, bonus points for Invoking the Cube-Square Law if it has Hulking Size!

In Our World when talking about Nicodemous' PI it mentioned it works against nukes etc so from that I guess PI is a perfect defense against any physical thing but its catch.

[Sanctaphrax]

@Silverblaze: I really don't think that this game is easy to break. Thaumaturgy is the only real hole in the balance, I think.

Just because optimization is possible, doesn't mean that the system is unbalanced. An optimized Chest Deep character with 7 accuracy, 7 defence, and weapon rating 7 can still be challenged in a fight, it just requires opposition more suitable for a Snorkelling game.

@InferrumVeritas: Not sure what you mean. What mechanics in this game are balanced by fluff?

@JayTee: If you aren't really immune, then you shouldn't have Immunity. You should just have a whole bunch of Toughness.

@sinker: The point I was trying to make was that Toughness, Recovery, and Immunity all have the sole purpose of helping you deal with physical stress. Immunity does that infinitely well, so it trumps both Recovery and Toughness combined.

[BumblingBear]

@Silverblaze: I really don't think that this game is easy to break. Thaumaturgy is the only real hole in the balance, I think.

Just because optimization is possible, doesn't mean that the system is unbalanced. An optimized Chest Deep character with 7 accuracy, 7 defence, and weapon rating 7 can still be challenged in a fight, it just requires opposition more suitable for a Snorkelling game.

I think the game is very balanced.

The people who don't think the game is balanced play it like it D&D, where everyone makes one piddly attack, and all stats are taken at face value.

In this game, a beat cop can kill a supernatural monster by having enough fate points and/or stacking aspects.

But hey - you're a gm who doesn't like people stacking aspects?  Ok, then actually compel them.  Be creative.  Compel them to attack without stacking aspects.

In my experience, the GMs who don't like the big numbers of the DFRPG are the ones who are not comfortable with aspects or compels yet.

*Note, I don't think I was clear that I was agreeing with Sancta and just adding to what was said.

[sinker]

@sinker: The point I was trying to make was that Toughness, Recovery, and Immunity all have the sole purpose of helping you deal with physical stress. Immunity does that infinitely well, so it trumps both Recovery and Toughness combined.

And my point is that even mythic recovery does a very poor job of dealing with physical stress within conflict (a maximum of six stress). It's about long term endurance over many scenes. It just seems to me that Immunity is essentially a higher level of toughness, however it's a poor comparison to recovery. Someone with immunity still requires sleep, still requires time to recover, still tires. These are the main strengths of recovery.

[Sanctaphrax]

Sure, it's true that Recovery is mainly useful over an extended timescale.

But all of its non-damage-based benefits are worth 1 refresh at most. That's 1 refresh for not sleeping and not getting tired.

The real benefit is the rapid recovery of consequences. Which is worse in every way than PI, since PI means that you'd never have to take consequences in the first place.

[ways and means]

Never getting tired and never needing to sleep is worth 2 refresh in my opinion you can spend a dozen nights solid pouring power into your broken ritual. 

[Sanctaphrax]

Mythic Recovery. +5 Catch. Costs 1 refresh, removes need for sleep in addition to other benefits.

[ways and means]

Yes but Supernatural Toughness with a catch of poison (+3) is also one refresh for a bonus off 4 stress boxes and 2 armour (6 stunts worth of powers) no one said that toughness powers with with majority catch where balanced, I think of that as more of a querk of the catch system than proof of anything.