Ambush out of a veil. Do you allow it? How do you do it?

[Taran]

@devonsapple/sinker

Thanks for the correction.  

It seems my take on it was wrong, which is exactly why I participate on this forum - to get a better grasp of the rules.  But sometimes it hurts just a little bit...

[sinker]

It's not necessarily wrong, just not the way "Billy" would run it. Even in the blurb you can tell it's a suggestion. If you enjoy keeping track of the veil's duration and it adds tension or challenge to your game then do it that way. I like the more abstract way because it gives veils a little more usefulness over standard blocks and encourages non-combat solutions to problems. Also because as I age as a gamer I seem to be drawn to the more abstract rules (I started with GURPS and Palladium, now I love FATE and rules free storytelling games).

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't think that blocks function against defence rolls. With that in mind:

Ambushes require multiple steps. First you have to hide, then you actually have to make the ambush. I'd certainly allow veils to cover the hiding rolls, but maybe not the final ambush roll. (And yes, I know that the final step says you can keep your hiding roll. But a veil isn't really a hiding roll.)

[ways and means]

'Duration with Evocation veils
is largely a matter of GM judgment call.
Personally I wouldn’t go for “1 shift gets
you one extra exchange” with a veil;
I’d just let it hang around until something
pierces it, or until the end of the scene. I
see them simply as REALLY GOOD magical
Stealth rolls.'

I run with this rule set and would argue that as a veil is a really good magical stealth roll it can be used for anything a stealth roll can including ambushes.

[devonapple]

It's not necessarily wrong, just not the way "Billy" would run it.

Exactly! It's not a correction - just an option! That we use.

[UmbraLux]

'Duration with Evocation veils
is largely a matter of GM judgment call.
Personally I wouldn’t go for “1 shift gets
you one extra exchange” with a veil;
I’d just let it hang around until something
pierces it, or until the end of the scene. I
see them simply as REALLY GOOD magical
Stealth rolls.'

I run with this rule set and would argue that as a veil is a really good magical stealth roll it can be used for anything a stealth roll can including ambushes.

Thanks for pointing that out!  I may need to modify how I treat veils. 

Hmm, do we need to allow for some type of maintained power? 

[Taran]

It's not necessarily wrong, just not the way "Billy" would run it.

Fair enough, but saying that's how Billy would run it is kind of like saying that's how the developers intended it.  That said, I think I'd still make a caster spend some extra shifts to make it last a scene...

[devonapple]

Fair enough, but saying that's how Billy would run it is kind of like saying that's how the developers intended it.  That said, I think I'd still make a caster spend some extra shifts to make it last a scene...

That's a fair middle ground.

One other option people have previously suggested is that each shift spent on "duration" actually counters a single instance when the Veil is pierced (or, if you prefer to think about it, recharges the Veil when it is pierced).

[Papa Gruff]

First of all thanks to everybody for their constructive contributions. I'd like this thread to go on a bit longer, so please feel free to further add your opinions.

It seems like the majority of participants lean towards allowing ambush rules to be used from under a veil. Billy's side note slipped my mind (I sometimes tend to overlook them) and seems to be the only guidance to how veils are supposed to work. If they are meant to be a really god stealth role then use for ambushes clearly seams to be implied.

I don't think that blocks function against defence rolls. With that in mind:

Ambushes require multiple steps. First you have to hide, then you actually have to make the ambush. I'd certainly allow veils to cover the hiding rolls, but maybe not the final ambush roll. (And yes, I know that the final step says you can keep your hiding roll. But a veil isn't really a hiding roll.)

That was my first assessment that lead to my moratorium on veiled based ambush during our game session. But it seems like I have to change my opinion. Point is: when veiled you are hidden. The attack is covered through an other skill.

Now, if veiled ambushes are meant to be possible, would you allow for navel gazing maneuvers too? Further aiding an already devastating possible magical attack with free tags seems like a big deal. The ambush rules allow for it. Is there a line to be drawn?

[zenten]

Now, if veiled ambushes are meant to be possible, would you allow for navel gazing maneuvers too? Further aiding an already devastating possible magical attack with free tags seems like a big deal. The ambush rules allow for it. Is there a line to be drawn?

The question seems to be exactly the same as that with a high stealth sniper.  I do think after a handful (no, I don't have something more concrete) navel gazing manoeuvres you shouldn't be able to do anymore.

[Delmorian]

Remembering the fight with the shang-nasty, when Harry and the Alphas took it on, Harry commented on how powerful and perfect its veils were. It attacked from inside them and still didn't go visible. Maybe a couple shifts can allow this, but I think that regular veils wont. Pure book logic, not rules lawyer-fu (my rule book knowledge is sketchy)

[devonapple]

Remembering the fight with the shang-nasty, when Harry and the Alphas took it on, Harry commented on how powerful and perfect its veils were. It attacked from inside them and still didn't go visible. Maybe a couple shifts can allow this, but I think that regular veils wont. Pure book logic, not rules lawyer-fu (my rule book knowledge is sketchy)

I think it had it as a perpetual power, rather than casting it as Evocation or Thaumaturgy as used in the system - much the same way that an experienced specialist can buy Breath Weapon or Shape Change powers to reflect their practice and reliability with such spells.

[ways and means]

I still reckon Shagnasty had the glamour power (the fifth most poorly described power in your story), I definatly agree that evocation veils should be removed when attacking.

[Taran]

Now, if veiled ambushes are meant to be possible, would you allow for navel gazing maneuvers too? Further aiding an already devastating possible magical attack with free tags seems like a big deal. The ambush rules allow for it. Is there a line to be drawn?

Just make sure that if they're using the same skill twice that you increase the difficulty of the maneuver/declaration. 

Also, I don't want to beat a dead horse, but if you have a veil that lasts one scene (using evocation), It'd be a hard sell to say that the scene lasts four hours while they set up a perfect ambush situation...Of course, I guess they could spend four hours setting up the perfect ambush situation and THEN cast the veil - but I think you know what I'm getting at.  Either there might not be enough time to set up tonnes of maneuvers or the time between the maneuver and the actual ambush may be so long as to make the maneuver useless(like setting up the ambush and placing a "shadowy" aspect in the wee hours of the morning, but the ambush ends up taking place at noon).  I guess what I'm getting at is I think navel gazing maneuvers are completely independant of the use of a veil - so use your judgment.  I might disallow a maneuver called "veiled" as that's a little redundant.

I think that most people are in agreement that the ambush situation should only be for the first exchange.  That first exchange will be devastating, and possibly enough to finish the encounter.  Realistically, if you have lots of time to set up a really good ambush - veil or no- it should probably be devastating.

[Tsunami]

I'd like to add my 2 cents

Veils & Ambushes
For the purpose of an ambush a Veil can replace the stealth roll. In any other regard, the Veil-Ambush works like any run of the mill Stealth-Ambush.
The Veil might still exist after the Ambush, provided there are shifts of duration left. Otherwise it drops. If it stays active It does not however allow for a second ambush attack, or support further attacks in any way.

That brings me to

Ambushes in General
In General Ambushes can only occur once per conflict, namely at the beginning of said conflict. The Mediocre Defense is based on the fact that the target it totally unsuspecting, and that's simply not the case once the conflict has started. Any attempts to "attack from under a veil" during a conflict are best modeled as tags on maneuver aspect like for example "under a veil".
Once an ambush is set you can do nothing else but wait for your shot. This holds true for normal Stealth Ambushes, as well as those from under a Veil. If you do something else than wait, your ambush advantage is lost together with all the aspects created to aid it.

Last but not least

Magical Attacks out of Ambushes
I don't see any reason to disallow it. Where would be the big difference between firing a gun or rifle from ambush and an evocation cast from ambush?
There really isn't one. The Target is still caught unawares, which is what the ambush rules are built on.
As for maneuvers in an ambush to aid in casting. Sure, it's basically just like aiming your rifle, steadying your breathing, adjusting the sights on the gun, putting up little flags to judge the wind... as long as you can think of things to help your spellcasting, you can add aspects just like you can for any other ambush attack.



So Long story short:

1: A Veil can replace the Stealth roll. It does not add additional utility, so no moving ambush or something like that.
2: An Evocation attack acts just like any other attack when used in an ambush.
3: If the Veil has been cast with additional shifts for duration, then it could still exist after the ambush attack. However, it does nothing to aid further attacks.

I think number 3 could use some playtesting to see if it really makes a big difference to allow a block to carry over into the conflict. If it does one can easily say that the Ambush-Attack removes the veil.

That's my take.