Author Topic: When is wordy just too wordy?  (Read 8078 times)

Offline Paynesgrey

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Re: When is wordy just too wordy?
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2011, 02:33:08 PM »
Again, it's a question of who your target audience is, and the practical matter of getting established with that audience.  Dumas is still in print, yes, because there are still enough people appreciate classic literature and/or enjoy that writing style. 

But a new writer flopping a Tome O' Wordyness out there is not dreadfully likely to catch up with him simply on the basis of "It's wordy, like Dumas.", assuming he's able to even get published simply because he's yet to establish much in the way of credentials with the classic lit fans.  Most likely, publisher is going to look at and say "Yeah.  Give me something shorter that might sell, then maybe we'll talk about your magnum opus here."

How many Dumas fans are going to buy a book simply on the basis that "It's long like Dumas, and has lots and lots of words?" They're going to need to be convinced it's worth the time to read, that that big old heaping pile of words actually add up to something worth their time.  Unless the author has enough published material under his belt to make a say "hey, I'll give that a try." 

Stephan Brust established himself as a successful and entertaining writer and built a reader base with the Taltos books before trotting out his Phoenix Guard.  In all likelyhood, he was learning more and more about writing during that time period.  In regard to the logistics of making a published book happen, without having laid that groundwork his odds of having the Phoenix Guard published would have been slim.  On top of that, without already having led so many readers to Vlad's world it probably wouldn't have done as well.  The publisher had a reason to trust that The Phoenix Guard was worth investing resources and money into, and there was an established base of readers who had reason to trust it was worth their time and 8 dollars.

Picasso's earlier work demonstrated that he spent time learning the fundamentals of depicting what he saw, and he then moved to a style where he depicted what he felt about what he saw.  Having a foundation, a set of tools he was able to work with allowed him to do so more effectively than the current frustrated art students who never learn to draw but go straight to throwing fried monkey vomit at a canvas and then get frustrated when nobody understands how profound their work is.  By mastering the basic tools, Picasso was able to create work that acted as a bridge from his earlier, realistic style to abstract style he developed over time. 

It's a recurring theme, mastering the basics before moving to the more complex works.  Michelangelo learned to draw simple things, to make pigments, basic composition before he did the Sistine Chapel, etc.

In the same way, Dumas most likely learned words and grammer and the fundamentals of communication before he laid trotted out The Three Musketeers.  That's why most writers find it useful to start with short stories, character sketches, vignettes before they try to tackle a full blown novel.  If a writer never learns to write a basic short story, never learns and exercises the skills to effectively describe basic events and emotions, it's not terribly likely they're going to produce the next Jitterbug Perfume, Ishmael or Atlas Shrugged.

Offline Starbeam

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Re: When is wordy just too wordy?
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2011, 02:43:25 PM »
Another reason Dumas is wordy, like Dickens, is because his works were serialized before novelized.  So they were paid by the word.
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Offline arianne

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Re: When is wordy just too wordy?
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2011, 03:05:17 PM »
I'm pretty sure that "wordy" is unlikely to become a genre in the near future ;D "Oh, hey, check out this new wordy novel by so-and-so"? Not happening.

Looking at my own stuff, I find that I tend to use "wordier" sentences to "create atmosphere" (Oh, how grand thou art making thyself out to be!) I like the feel of making things sort of flow in movie-like manner.

However, several of my action (aka fight) scenes also seem to have longer sentences.

Would it be better to say,

"He shot me."

or

"He shot me, the bullet exploding in the enclosed space like fireworks on the Fourth of July."

Possibly a bad example up there ;D Hopefully SOMEONE got what I'm trying to say....

Personally, I'm a little biased against classic authors, because it seems to me that they take a WAY long time to get to the point sometimes. Granted, most of them were not writing thrillers, and some of them were getting paid by the word, but there is a limit to the number of "gentle reader" asides that I can take in a given page :D
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Offline Paynesgrey

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Re: When is wordy just too wordy?
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2011, 03:07:39 PM »
Never thought of that.  Irony, thy name is Word Count Filler.

Makes me wonder....

"Look, Jeff, these little stories about Canterbury are funny and all, but I need a few more of them if you want me to pick up your bar tab for you."

Offline Snowleopard

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Re: When is wordy just too wordy?
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2011, 03:14:13 PM »
Another reason Dumas is wordy, like Dickens, is because his works were serialized before novelized.  So they were paid by the word.

And not much per word either.

Offline Starbeam

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Re: When is wordy just too wordy?
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2011, 04:39:44 PM »
Correcting myself--Dickens was paid by installment, not by word.  But still makes people think he overwrote when he should've ended stories.

And not much per word either.
This still holds true today.  Most of what I've seen from magazines is that they pay anywhere from around $.02 to maybe $.08 per word.  I might've seen one that paid $.10, but I'm not certain.
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Offline Paynesgrey

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Re: When is wordy just too wordy?
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2011, 05:22:52 PM »
Which brings to mind the burden of convincing a periodical editor that your words are worth that few pennies each compared to a competing author .... "who's words will bring us more subscriptions..."

I'm not saying that trying to be Dumas is an inherently bad way to write, just that it's not the most practical approach if one's a new author seeking to get published rather than writing purely for their own gratification.

I do find myself chuckling at the many young aspiring writers over the last century plus who've emulated the style of Dumas and Dickens because they thought it represented the Truth Of The Art, The Noble High Calling, when the poor bastards wrote that way because they were just trying to make the rent and needed to fluff up their submissions.  To be fair, common speech and correspondence were More Wordier in those times, but it's still kind of funny.

Offline mrkleve

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Re: When is wordy just too wordy?
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2011, 05:39:04 PM »
For some examples of evocative, atmospheric writing that still carries the story, I'd suggest Raymond Chandler's The Big Sleep and John D. MacDonald's Darker Than Amber.  It's the sort of writing where you can smell the wet pavement but the story and characters aren't overwhelmed.

Agreed! I have NEVER thought that MacDonald was wordy.
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Offline Starbeam

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Re: When is wordy just too wordy?
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2011, 05:39:39 PM »
Another side to look at it is to use Mote in God's Eye as an example.  Pretty sure that's the title-Larry Niven and someone else, I think.  They were told that they had to cut out something like 10-15%, and they went through the novel and pared down each chapter by something like 5-10% and have since said that the book still sells and gives them quite a bit of royalties.  Which goes back to making every word further the story.
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Re: When is wordy just too wordy?
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2011, 01:43:08 AM »
I'm pretty sure that "wordy" is unlikely to become a genre in the near future ;D "Oh, hey, check out this new wordy novel by so-and-so"? Not happening.

Stephen King seems to do OK writing things that, well, strike me at least as immensely wordy.
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Re: When is wordy just too wordy?
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2011, 01:45:43 AM »
"Look, Jeff, these little stories about Canterbury are funny and all, but I need a few more of them if you want me to pick up your bar tab for you."

Have you by any chance seen:

http://houseoffame.blogspot.com/2006/04/idea-for-poeme.html

(That's one where I have literally bought the t-shirt.)
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Offline Paynesgrey

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Re: When is wordy just too wordy?
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2011, 02:05:07 AM »
I'm afraid that link seems to be kaput.  Do you have another link to the same material?

In regards to King, wordy indeed.  But how many Stephen Kings are there, compared to Failed Stephen Kings?  Anyway, he started with workshops and writing exercises, short stories and smaller books before moving to Epic Tomes.  Sometimes it works (The Stand)  other times, not so much.  And for a good long while it seemed he was just phoning it in.  But the average or new writer trying to emulate his style is likely to get a lot of rejection slips, and reviews using phrases like "ponderous" and "plodding" or "lost in the sound of his own typing."

King established a his "street cred" and has been successful enough that editors let him do it his way, that existing fans would buy everything he puts out.  But frankly, I think that King's writing style is not one that too many people could emulate successfully.  I also suspect he gets a lot of slack publishers, critics, reviewers readers would not grant anyone without his track record.

Offline Snowleopard

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Re: When is wordy just too wordy?
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2011, 05:55:47 AM »
Being hit by a van doesn't help either.

Offline BumblingBear

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Re: When is wordy just too wordy?
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2011, 09:16:14 AM »
We've all read those books where the sun takes fifty pages or so to rise (and then fifty more pages about how the hero and heroine felt when watching this wonderful sunrise).

However, I sometimes found myself writing long sentences, not flowery description actually, but kind of longish anyway.

Example I have used when talking to people about this, is where one of the characters smashes a pane of glass with his fist, and the subsequent description goes “...the slivers [of glass] showered down to disappear into the dark of the pavement”.

I personally like this, but I'm wondering if maybe it's too wordy? Should the glass just shower down? In a few simple words? Or just have the glass fall down instead?

Thoughts?

I would write it:

"the slivers [of glass] showered down to the pavement below, tinkling as they went.

A lot of how you construct the sentence depends on what you are writing and what kind of mood you are trying to convey.
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Offline meg_evonne

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Re: When is wordy just too wordy?
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2011, 06:36:38 PM »
The problem with suggesting actual re-wording is that the context and the reason for the line can be so different, and it's the author that needs to gage that.

In this case, you could begin with the sound of the glass makes and it chances the nuance of the line. The longer version can be just as relativent and important. We don't know, because we don't have the complete context or the entire manuscript...
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