A catch of Decapitation

[Khalis231]

Exactly, that's one obvious example of separate catches.  It's also the only way you gain the refresh rebate of multiple catches.  Stacked catches which negate each other are, of course, "strongly discouraged". 

This is how I (and at least a few others) typically build tough spirits and elemental creatures.  The book example is an immunity to fire and a vulnerability to cold for a fire demon.

I think Toturi has it right. While the book allows you to take (theoretically) as many Catches as you want for your Toughness powers, gaining refresh for only the highest-rebate Catch, it does specify that the Catch applies to both Toughness and Recovery. You can definitely take two Catches for your Toughness powers, you just can't assign one to Toughness and one to Recovery.

Stacked Catches appear to be a different situation, and apply only to Physical Immunity.

Being able to specify different Catches for Toughness and Recovery seems like it would be inherently overpowered compared to using a single Catch, because it would require additional preparation or effort by enemies to cancel out the full breadth of a character's Toughness powers. There are certain situations where it might make sense, like with a Catch of decapitation, but it would require a refresh adjustment to be properly balanced. I would give the refresh rebate for the lowest-rebate catch, rather than the highest, and possibly charge an additional -1 refresh for the ability to be able to rely more heavily on having at least one Toughness power active, even if the other's Catch is being satisfied.

[UmbraLux]

I think Toturi has it right. While the book allows you to take (theoretically) as many Catches as you want for your Toughness powers, gaining refresh for only the highest-rebate Catch, it does specify that the Catch applies to both Toughness and Recovery. You can definitely take two Catches for your Toughness powers, you just can't assign one to Toughness and one to Recovery.

Stacked Catches appear to be a different situation, and apply only to Physical Immunity.

I suspect we're largely in agreement...which means I've failed at explaining my point.     Trying again...

• Toughness powers normally require one or more catches.
• "Toughness" powers include Physical Immunity, Recovery, and Toughness.  (As an aside, DFRPG's use of terminology and jargon is a recurrent complaint of mine.  It may have helped if the category "Toughness" and the sub-power "Toughness" had different names.)
• The only way to gain the refresh rebate of multiple catches is to have one or more toughness powers along with Physical Immunity and a Stacked Catch.
• Assigning one catch to Physical Immunity and a second to Recovery follows logically.

Being able to specify different Catches for Toughness and Recovery seems like it would be inherently overpowered compared to using a single Catch, because it would require additional preparation or effort by enemies to cancel out the full breadth of a character's Toughness powers. There are certain situations where it might make sense, like with a Catch of decapitation, but it would require a refresh adjustment to be properly balanced. I would give the refresh rebate for the lowest-rebate catch, rather than the highest, and possibly charge an additional -1 refresh for the ability to be able to rely more heavily on having at least one Toughness power active, even if the other's Catch is being satisfied.

Agreed, and the book recommends against it.  That said, the side bars (and a few examples) allow for Recovery without a catch.

[Khalis231]

I think we're mostly on the same page as well. I agree with everything in your most recent post, but it doesn't really address my confusion with regard to your position, which stems from this quote:

you don't get to separate them, the catch applies to both toughness and regen.

Not entirely true.  See stacked catches.

We're all in agreement that a Stacked Catch (which specifically relates to Physical Immunity) can be entirely separate from the catch for Toughness/Recovery. But I don't believe Discipol was referring to Physical Immunity here, he was talking about the Toughness (the sub-power) and Recovery, which are indeed lumped together for the purposes of Catches. So I guess I'm puzzled why you think his statement was not entirely true.

Exactly, that's one obvious example of separate catches.  It's also the only way you gain the refresh rebate of multiple catches.  Stacked catches which negate each other are, of course, "strongly discouraged".

Again, I'm puzzled by your response here, because a Stacked Catch with Physical Immunity is the only example of a separate catch amongst Toughness-category powers. It's certainly not the only example of multiple Catches, but it's the only case where a Catch doesn't have to apply to the other Toughness powers. In other words, someone with Inhuman Toughness and Inhuman Recovery could specify both a Catch of "inherited silver" and a Catch of "holy objects," but that would mean that both Catches would apply equally to both powers. He couldn't specify that "inherited silver" is the Catch for his Inhuman Toughness while "holy objects" is the Catch for Inhuman Recovery, the way he could if he were taking Physical Immunity and Inhuman Recovery.

So I guess my question is this: do you believe that it's possible to have separate, distinct Catches for Inhuman Toughness and Inhuman Recovery? It's my understanding that this isn't just "not recommended," but is actually not possible given the RAW. That was the point being debated in this thread, as I perceived it. We aren't in disagreement about rebates, Physical Immunity, or Stacked Catches.

[UmbraLux]

I think we're mostly on the same page as well. I agree with everything in your most recent post, but it doesn't really address my confusion with regard to your position, which stems from this quote:

We're all in agreement that a Stacked Catch (which specifically relates to Physical Immunity) can be entirely separate from the catch for Toughness/Recovery. But I don't believe Discipol was referring to Physical Immunity here, he was talking about the Toughness (the sub-power) and Recovery, which are indeed lumped together for the purposes of Catches. So I guess I'm puzzled why you think his statement was not entirely true.

First, the terminology issue again - "Toughness" vs "toughness" - which is which?     Second, in my opinion Physical Immunity is just the fourth level of the Toughness power. 

Again, I'm puzzled by your response here, because a Stacked Catch with Physical Immunity is the only example of a separate catch amongst Toughness-category powers. It's certainly not the only example of multiple Catches, but it's the only case where a Catch doesn't have to apply to the other Toughness powers. In other words, someone with Inhuman Toughness and Inhuman Recovery could specify both a Catch of "inherited silver" and a Catch of "holy objects," but that would mean that both Catches would apply equally to both powers. He couldn't specify that "inherited silver" is the Catch for his Inhuman Toughness while "holy objects" is the Catch for Inhuman Recovery, the way he could if he were taking Physical Immunity and Inhuman Recovery.

Agreed.  It's the obvious example.

So I guess my question is this: do you believe that it's possible to have separate, distinct Catches for Inhuman Toughness and Inhuman Recovery? It's my understanding that this isn't just "not recommended," but is actually not possible given the RAW. That was the point being debated in this thread, as I perceived it. We aren't in disagreement about rebates, Physical Immunity, or Stacked Catches.

By the text on YS:184-187, no. 

[wyvern]

As a side-note, a separate "catch" that applies only to recovery or toughness is perfectly legal... as long as it's not refunding any refresh, and isn't the sole catch.

So, for example, if you have someone with, say, Supernatural Toughness & Recovery, who can be hurt or killed via necromantic magics (a +1 to +3 catch depending on how easy it is to figure out), you could also declare that they could be killed by decapitation (i.e. that functions as a catch only for recovery) - you just wouldn't receive any additional refresh for that.

[Khalis231]

First, the terminology issue again - "Toughness" vs "toughness" - which is which?     Second, in my opinion Physical Immunity is just the fourth level of the Toughness power. 
Agreed.  It's the obvious example.
By the text on YS:184-187, no. 

Well that clears everything up, we were saying the same thing after all   I guess I see Physical Immunity in a category all its own, because of how the Stacked Catch thing works. That might be why we were talking past each other.

[Khalis231]

As a side-note, a separate "catch" that applies only to recovery or toughness is perfectly legal... as long as it's not refunding any refresh, and isn't the sole catch.

So, for example, if you have someone with, say, Supernatural Toughness & Recovery, who can be hurt or killed via necromantic magics (a +1 to +3 catch depending on how easy it is to figure out), you could also declare that they could be killed by decapitation (i.e. that functions as a catch only for recovery) - you just wouldn't receive any additional refresh for that.

That's a good point, I hadn't thought of that. There doesn't seem to be any harm in specifying an "extra" Catch for one or the other of Recovery or Toughness (power), as long as there's a single Catch for both to satisfy the power's requirement and the second one isn't giving refresh. So from my earlier silver/holy stuff example, I couldn't assign one Catch to each power, but I could set "silver" as the Catch for both, satisfying the requirement, and then tack on "holy stuff" as a Catch to Toughness only.