Thaumaturgical Blocks ... err, help?

[Todjaeger]

Not all Blocks are Wards: Wards are a special kind of Block. I think Block is appropriate in this case.

Something important to keep in mind (at least in my opinion...)  What is so different and special about Wards, is that a Ward is something which is (or can be) both a defensive and offensive Block, at the same time.  An Evocation Block can be defensive, or it can be offensive (a la Ramirez's Water-based entropy block) but not at the same time.

Generally speaking, Thaumaturgy can do anything which Evocation can do, it just can't do it as quickly.  In many instances, Thaumaturgy can achieve a 'better' effect than Evocation can, having more time to collect and control power, etc.  Again though, it just isn't able to achieve a given effect as quickly. 

-Cheers

[sinker]

Generally speaking, Thaumaturgy can do anything which Evocation can do, it just can't do it as quickly.  In many instances, Thaumaturgy can achieve a 'better' effect than Evocation can, having more time to collect and control power, etc.  Again though, it just isn't able to achieve a given effect as quickly. 

I just don't see this in the RAW. If you guys are seeing something I'm not then I'd like to see it too. (of note I'm not trying to pick on you specifically, you just seem to have summarized this attitude very well)

See also veils
see also Types of Thaumaturgy not being an exhaustive list

Thaumaturgical veils are similar to wards in that they are immobile. YS276

Thaumaturgical veils are not usually mobile and
are constrained by thresholds and other barriers
that scatter magical energies (such as a river).

Also I'm not referencing the "Types of thaumaturgy" section, I'm referencing the "What can you do with it" section, which seems like it's pretty clear in enumerating the uses of thaumaturgy. The only reference in that section to blocks falls under wards. Read the section if you're interested.

The thing is, Thaumatugry can do ANYTHING.  Look again at the thaumaturgy section where it talks about how to determine how many shifts of power are required, especially when it talks about "simple actions" and doing things that would normally be impossible for a human to do.  Blocking a specific kind of sound with magic earmuffs isn't that far off from covering your ears or using noise-canceling headphones.

Actually I did check that section. It specifically mentions simple actions, maneuvers, contests, conflicts, and finally wards and veils. Simple actions as explained earlier in the book are single non-conflict skill rolls. It's also important to remember that simple actions are always uncontested (I.E. Player vs. set difficulty, not player vs. opposed skill roll). Look at YS192 for more info on simple actions.

@Haru Some effects of evocation does not mean all. If you look at my response to EdgeOfDreams you'll see that it can do almost all of the effects of evocation, but the only blocks mentioned are veils and wards which are both required to be immobile.

Harry's duster (YS:303) is a thaumaturgy created enchanted item providing mobile armor (a block) against damage.  The OP's earmuffs sound very similar except they're a block against sound. 

Finally, yes the crafting type of thaumaturgy can create evocation effects as enchanted items. Harry's duster creates an evocation block, just as his force ring creates an evocation attack. If you read my original post that is what I suggested.

Honestly I'm wondering where you guys are getting this in the RAW, because I've pretty thoroughly read the thaumaturgy section and I can't find any evidence for blocks that aren't wards or veils, which as I've said must be immobile.

[devonapple]

Honestly I'm wondering where you guys are getting this in the RAW, because I've pretty thoroughly read the thaumaturgy section and I can't find any evidence for blocks that aren't wards or veils, which as I've said must be immobile.

Just as a note: I see time and time again that Evil Hat encourages extrapolating from existing rules, and most of the times I am having trouble with a concept, it is this advice which ends up working best. So, if Thaumaturgy can do everything Evocation can do, but better, more precisely, with a longer duration, I'm inclined to go for it.

A Ward has special rules about how it degrades, about placing mines, etc. A Block will simply dissipate if it is overcome, unless it is built as Armor. Allowing a Thaumaturgical Block - that is not a Ward - is not gamebreaking as I understand it.

[Todjaeger]

I just don't see this in the RAW. If you guys are seeing something I'm not then I'd like to see it too. (of note I'm not trying to pick on you specifically, you just seem to have summarized this attitude very well)

For starters, no, I don't feel like I'm being picked on, so no problem.

As for the RAW and attitude about the basic flexibility, or perhaps scope or depth of options, which Thaumaturgy can provide...

Here is from YS262, the very first paragraph/sentence underneath What You Can Do With It in Thaumaturgy

Thaumaturgy carries an extremely broad range of effects under its banner: summoning and binding supernatural entities like spirits or demons, divination and detection, wards, curses, temporary and permanent enchantments on people and things…the list is potentially endless.

The bolded being, in my opinion, the most important.  Thaumaturgy can be used effectively for whatever the GM/storyteller and players can agree on, subject to a reasonable difficulty of course.

-Cheers

[sinker]

Just as a note: I see time and time again that Evil Hat encourages extrapolating from existing rules, and most of the times I am having trouble with a concept, it is this advice which ends up working best. So, if Thaumaturgy can do everything Evocation can do, but better, more precisely, with a longer duration, I'm inclined to go for it.

Yeah, I've noticed this too. I think the thing that I keep coming back to is that it seems like an intentional omission. They go to the trouble of telling you exactly how any non-conflict action would function, as well as most of the conflict actions, but then specifically lay these limitations down on blocks. I just can't get over that.

I guess the best answer to the original poster is that if you want RAW justification to say no, it's there, but if you're having fun and it works for you there's justification to say yes too.

[UmbraLux]

I think both the book and Fred are fairly explicit on wanting individual groups to interpret the rules their own way.  So what follows is my interpretation...

Thaumaturgy has two explicit limitations, preparation time and a requirement for symbols.  Beyond those limitations the possible uses "are potentially endless" as Todjaeger quoted.  When it comes to blocks, the symbol requirement is key.  A ward may use either threshold or circle as a symbol - both of which are immobile.  An enchanted item may use a jacket which is mobile.  Both are blocks.  That enchanted jacket could as easily be a spell cast once* rather than a long term enchantment.  It could also have been cast with / on any item meeting the requirement of being a protective symbol.

*I'd recommend following the requirement of paying fate points for temporary power gains.

[EdgeOfDreams]

Yeah, I've noticed this too. I think the thing that I keep coming back to is that it seems like an intentional omission. They go to the trouble of telling you exactly how any non-conflict action would function, as well as most of the conflict actions, but then specifically lay these limitations down on blocks. I just can't get over that.

I guess the best answer to the original poster is that if you want RAW justification to say no, it's there, but if you're having fun and it works for you there's justification to say yes too.

To me, a block IS a simple action, not a contested one.  Normal, mundane blocks (or evocation blocks) involve a roll which sets the strength of the block.  That's it. No one rolls against you, there's no target number to overcome.  The result is a block of strength X.

THEN, if someone else wants to do whatever you blocked, they have to roll against the block.

[Watson]

I would also agree that Thaumaturgy would be able to do most of the things that can be done with Evocation. This would also mean that it is possible to perform a Thaumaturgical counterspell. I would, though, not allow any Thaumaturgical attacks, as this would be handled by the Transformation parts of the rules.

[Haru]

@Haru Some effects of evocation does not mean all. If you look at my response to EdgeOfDreams you'll see that it can do almost all of the effects of evocation, but the only blocks mentioned are veils and wards which are both required to be immobile.

The difference to me between wards and blocks is simply the default duration. A block would last only a scene, while a ward would probably start at a day.

Though I admit, this would be a little overpowered, just create a huge block object before a big fight, and nobody will be able to do anything against you.

Revised agenda:
Create them as a potion. I think that is what potion slots were meant to be, come to think of it. So it would be a simple block as per the evocation rules, you just don't have to pay stress, and you might be able to enhance them on the fly with an appropriate aspect.

[devonapple]

Revised agenda:
Create them as a potion. I think that is what potion slots were meant to be, come to think of it. So it would be a simple block as per the evocation rules, you just don't have to pay stress, and you might be able to enhance them on the fly with an appropriate aspect.

For the "defend against the magic flute" scenario, that would also be a good idea.

[Haru]

For the "defend against the magic flute" scenario, that would also be a good idea.

That's what I meant it for. Or basically any plot based block to go.That is what potion slots are for, and if you create items extra, you are going to disrupt the whole item-slot-continuum. It even says so in the book, that you should always leave potion slots open for just such an occasion.

[sinker]

Revised agenda:
Create them as a potion. I think that is what potion slots were meant to be, come to think of it. So it would be a simple block as per the evocation rules, you just don't have to pay stress, and you might be able to enhance them on the fly with an appropriate aspect.

That was my original solution. I think it works quite well.

[UmbraLux]

Yep, the "potion" / enchanted item solution works well.

I would also agree that Thaumaturgy would be able to do most of the things that can be done with Evocation. This would also mean that it is possible to perform a Thaumaturgical counterspell. I would, though, not allow any Thaumaturgical attacks, as this would be handled by the Transformation parts of the rules.

Wouldn't you consider Sells' Heart Exploding spell an attack?

[JustADude]

I would also agree that Thaumaturgy would be able to do most of the things that can be done with Evocation. This would also mean that it is possible to perform a Thaumaturgical counterspell. I would, though, not allow any Thaumaturgical attacks, as this would be handled by the Transformation parts of the rules.

Wouldn't you consider Sells' Heart Exploding spell an attack?

Lets not forget that in "It's My Birthday, Too" it mentions Harry taking 20 seconds (which would be several exchanges) to cast an Earth spell to

(click to show/hide)

absolutely crush one of the fresh BCVs the main baddy had left in the parking lot of the mall

.

[Taer]

I'd say no, movable Thumaturgy blocks are a bad idea. It's not just about this particular spell itself. Rather, it sets a bad precedent.

If he can use them for blocking sound, why not for blocking physical damage? It's not that difficult to get a huge amount of shifts on Thaumaturgy. This is fine for Wards - they're immobile. However, actual long-lasting physical wards could lead to incredibly overpowered results.

At my most generous, I'd say you might allow it, but use the Time Increments table and start from "instant"(so, if he wants an hour-long shield, that's 7 shifts right there) - the duration of an Evocation block. Even so, it's a bad idea. It allows for any competent spellcaster with a cult(or other manpower willing to contribute consequences to the spell) to have a nigh-impenetrable shield for a very long time(after all, Time Increments go into years and lifetimes).

So, really, this situation would be better handled by the Temporary Power rules. Let him use a Thaumaturgy spell to say he stored the energy of the spell. At the actual scene where he wants to use it, allow for him to pick up Refinement as a temporary power. That's 4 four Enchanted Item slots right there, this gives him plenty of uses of the "item".

So, anyhow, I'd play it like this: base complexity of the spell is equal to Lore(the enchanted item's Strength) +0-7(for a scene long duration, depends on what the "base" time is) +2(1 Refresh being roughly equal to 2 shifts). After the spell is cast, he can spend one Fate Point(Temporary Power rules) in order to gain access to an "Enchanted Item" worth 4 Enchanted Item Slots(ie. -1 Refresh worth of Refinement) for one scene. He can only do this once, afterwards the spell is "spent" and he'd need to cast it again to gain any benefits.

Anyhow, even this feels fairly generous but I guess it's in keeping with the theme that a prepared wizard can be an nightmare.