statting a lightsaber

[ways and means]

Seriously, from a gameply aspect if I had lightsabers at some ridiculous Weapon value like 4, 5, or 6 they would be way too overpowered.  Lightsabers are not battlefield weaponry...

I hate to be purely argumentative but yes they are in all senses of the word, they are weapons used on the battlefield and they are also anti-material weapons that can carve through tank armour in a round (the walkers armour) something no weapons 2 weapons could do.

[AlexFallad]

Bent a friend's ear about his current Star Wars FATE game, and they are counting Lightsabers as equipment (no Refresh) but are charging Refresh for the training to use them properly. Didn't ask what weapon value they used.

Good point.  The stats I posted are no refresh/equipment lightsabers.  All manner of Force powers are necessary for deflecting/redirecting shots, dealing with radiating heat, or learning an advanced lightsaber form.

For me the whole "lightsaber cuts through metal like butter" falls apart when Luke gets a tag in on Vader's arm in ESB.  He had the opening and swung hard. Lo, the arm remained attached...

[AlexFallad]

I hate to be purely argumentative but yes they are in all senses of the word, they are weapons used on the battlefield and they are also anti-material weapons that can carve through tank armour in a round (the walkers armour) something no weapons 2 weapons could do.

That was some kind of access panel he cut open on the ATAT.  Lightsabers don't carve through anything thick enough in one round.  It took Qui-Gonn far too long to work though a door...he didn't even get to finish.  He had to very deliberately carve through the blast door exerting both his will and physical Might.  Luke, on the other hand, hit a weak spot of some kind.  Hell, there's even a discharge of some kind when he gets the opening for the grenade...and that discharge sure doesn't look like molten steel but electrical...like an access panel.

By "battlefield weaponry" I was going by the dfrpg weapon rating where I'm fairly certain their intent was weapon:4 for grenades, rpgs, artillery...i.e, not something PCs should just have available on a whim.

[BumblingBear]

A lightsaber is at LEAST a weapon 5.

Considering that a large solid steel pudao meant to be used by a character with inhuman strength is a weapon:4, a lightsaber would have to be higher than that.

I've read every single book in the Star Wars Universe up until they killed off Jacen Solo (bastards).

The point is, a lightsaber CAN cut through armor plating.  They do so multiple times.

Also- for those of you who have not read any books, remember in Return of the Jedi when Luke cuts through the front of a speeder bike with his lightsaber?  Uh huh

I personally would stat a lightsaber at Weapon: 6 and ignoring 2 shifts of armor.

A lightsaber can cut through an I-beam in one exchange.

[AlexFallad]

I've read every single book in the Star Wars Universe up until they killed off Jacen Solo (bastards).

The point is, a lightsaber CAN cut through armor plating.  They do so multiple times.

  Yes, but not quickly.

Also- for those of you who have not read any books, remember in Return of the Jedi when Luke cuts through the front of a speeder bike with his lightsaber?  Uh huh

Those are rather skinny struts, not I-beams...

A lightsaber can cut through an I-beam in one exchange.

When? And in what context that fairly contradicts Qui-Gonn's difficulty with a blast door?  I mean, I know Star Wars has sitting ducks in it, but I wasn't aware they had I-beams too...

[BumblingBear]

 Yes, but not quickly.
 Those are rather skinny struts, not I-beams...
 When? And in what context that fairly contradicts Qui-Gonn's difficulty with a blast door?  I mean, I know Star Wars has sitting ducks in it, but I wasn't aware they had I-beams too...

I don't consider episode I-III canon.

And in several books, Luke cut through a meter of solid rock like nothing.

[devonapple]

I don't consider episode I-III canon.

And in several books, Luke cut through a meter of solid rock like nothing.

Unfortunately, as much as we dislike them, the stuff that ended up on the screen is the definition of canon, while all the books have been treated basically like fanfic by Lucas, who - as I am told - picked and chose what he liked and contradicted the rest without any real consideration.

I suspect that if we ask 8 Star Wars fans how a given element of the setting works, we'll get 9 opinions.

[BumblingBear]

Unfortunately, as much as we dislike them, the stuff that ended up on the screen is the definition of canon, while all the books have been treated basically like fanfic by Lucas, who - as I am told - picked and chose what he liked and contradicted the rest without any real consideration.

I suspect that if we ask 8 Star Wars fans how a given element of the setting works, we'll get 9 opinions.

True.

But another thing to consider is that older lightsabers were less powerful and less energy efficient.

In the days of the Old Republic - at the dawn of it, ligthsabers requires a cable between the weapon and a powerpack worn on the belt.

It was actually the Sith that modernized lightsabers and put a power source in the hilt itself.

[AlexFallad]

I don't consider episode I-III canon.

And in several books, Luke cut through a meter of solid rock like nothing.

Ah, a severe disconnect we have there.  Don't let meta plot weaknesses overrule evidence.  It's pretty absurd your rebuttal of Qui-Gonn's difficulty is rooted in a) problems with a movie's quality and b) acceptance of some hack writer's "look at the cool scene I wrote" that reached a far smaller audience than said movie.



Well, all I can speak to on a reasonable level then is gameplay and balance.  Lightsabers in my fate game are equipment like a blaster, so I have to balance in that regard.

Considering that in fate any physically dynamic pc is going to have an Endurance of +3 for 3 stress boxes or +5 for 4 stress boxes.  Try running a game where a zero-shift connect is an auto-consequence...very broken.

It is ridiculous to me that a zero-shift connect with a lightsaber MUST result in a consequence or taken out result instead of just physical stress

[BumblingBear]

Ah, a severe disconnect we have there.  Don't let meta plot weaknesses overrule evidence.  It's pretty absurd your rebuttal of Qui-Gonn's difficulty is rooted in a) problems with a movie's quality and b) acceptance of some hack writer's "look at the cool scene I wrote" that reached a far smaller audience than said movie.

You mean unlike a hack, washed up director's CGI wetdream?

I find it pretty obvious that you haven't read any of the novels.  There're about 100 of them now.

I will leave it at that instead of responding with the level of antagonism in your reply.

Well, all I can speak to on a reasonable level then is gameplay and balance.  Lightsabers in my fate game are equipment like a blaster, so I have to balance in that regard.

So?  Are you playing a 4 refresh game or something?  A weapon: 6 is really not that big of a deal at submerged or above.

Considering that in fate any physically dynamic pc is going to have an Endurance of +3 for 3 stress boxes or +5 for 4 stress boxes.  Try running a game where a zero-shift connect is an auto-consequence...very broken.

Have you actually played DFRPG yet?  I mean that seriously - not in a snarky way.

Wizards at submerged level can fairly easily make a 10 shift evocation with 10 control.

I have a player with a physical stress track 10 boxes long.

It is ridiculous to me that a zero-shift connect with a lightsaber MUST result in a consequence or taken out result instead of just physical stress

My Scion of Tyr character has a 7 shift weapon while wielding a common, everyday sword.

A Jedi, if the force is considered channeling, cannot min/max combat stats and has to have discipline and conviction.

As both a fairly knowledgeable Dresden Files player/GM, and a Star Wars fan... I think you're mistaken.

[wyvern]

The cutting power of lightsabers varies widely, even from scene to scene within a given source.  For example, in episode IV, when Obi-Wan faces Darth Vader, Vader's lightsaber quite clearly fails to cut Obi-Wan's robe.  And some of the books I've read have had jedi facing robots that die in one hit, and then robots that are so heavily armored that a lightsaber is "useless".  Seriously.

As such, I'd tend to say a lightsaber is an Item of Power.  You have to have an aspect ("My Father's Lightsaber" or "A More Civilized Weapon" or whatever).  It counts as weapon: 4, and has the sword of the cross' "all creatures are equal before god" ability.  So it quite literally runs at the power of plot; if you've got a fate point to spare, it's an unstoppable weapon that cuts through whatever is in your path.  No fate point?  I'm sorry, that heavily armored blast door is just a bit too tough to cut through before the enemy reinforcements show up.

As for it being "not a big deal at submerged or above" - keep in mind here that DFRPG is a higher powered setting than star wars.  A star wars jedi typically has inhuman speed, channeling, a lightsaber, guide my hand, and perhaps a few stunts.  That's less refresh spent than a starting wizard.  Even the big villains of the movies only added a little bit on top of that, upping channeling to evocation, and possibly picking up a few incite emotion based powers.

[ways and means]

As for it being "not a big deal at submerged or above" - keep in mind here that DFRPG is a higher powered setting than star wars.  A star wars jedi typically has inhuman speed, channeling, a lightsaber, guide my hand, and perhaps a few stunts.  That's less refresh spent than a starting wizard.  Even the big villains of the movies only added a little bit on top of that, upping channeling to evocation, and possibly picking up a few incite emotion based powers.

Again I would have to disagree on this there a several examples of Jedi and Sith fighting 1000s of opponents (mostly in the Old Republic), there is Darth Nihlus  who can eat all the life in an entire planet and Exar Kun who used force push to cause a supernova.   

[Ala Alba]

Again I would have to disagree on this there a several examples of Jedi and Sith fighting 1000s of opponents (mostly in the Old Republic), there is Darth Nihlus  who can eat all the life in an entire planet and Exar Kun who used force push to cause a supernova.

And I disagree with you. Those are plot device level characters, not playable characters. Or otherwise characters temporarily exceeding their refresh during plot device level events.

[Sanctaphrax]

This argument both bores and irritates me. It just seems so pointless.

So, Michael Sandy, have you decided what interpretation you're going with?

Or have you given up?

Or have we all missed the point completely?

[Michael Sandy]

Mostly I was looking for reasonable options that didn't involve abusing the crafting rules.

Something like weapon 4, a stunt to use weapon skill to block ranged weapons.  The 'cut through anything' could just be a refresh or two spent on bonuses for breaking inanimate objects.  That and allow weapons and tools designed to cut through things to accumulate 'navel gazing maneuvers' that simulate slowly cutting through things that have a higher defense value than the weapon could breach normally.

I am quite happy with the discussion, even if the result is never actually used in a campaign I am in.