Rapidly Altering Mundane Objects With Evocation?

[JustADude]

As the subject implies, I'm trying to figure out the mechanics of how to modify the shape and condition of a genuine, non-conjured object using an evocation spell. Specifically, the character in question is a Scion with Channeling (Metal) as part of the power-set since the mythology behind his non-human parent suggests a great affinity for forges, blacksmithing, whitesmithing, and all other sorts of metalwork.

Unlike this post (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,18533.0.html), I do think it's appropriate for him to take a stress hit for the effect, and the actual duration of the magic is a few seconds at most, as is proper for Evocation. I just need to figure out the guidelines for how much each shift of Power would affect the shape of the object. Uses would include everything from shaping a piece of scrap into a of wrought-metal jewelery, such as in exchange for being given an unexpected gift, to turning a Weapon:1 pipe into a Weapon:2 (or even higher) sword.

 Once again, Conjuration is NOT what I have in mind. These are actual, physical objects being manipulated by magic, not something being whipped up whole-cloth from ectoplasm.

[InFerrumVeritas]

Well, technically, evocation doesn't have the find control to really do this properly.  The rules for evocation don't really support this. 

The best way I can see to model it would be to use evocation to make the metal pliable and to aid crafting quickly.  What I'd do is treat evocation as a maneuver (with a base power of three shifts) to allow Crafting at rapid speeds.  I'd then treat the skill of your work based on a Crafting skill roll in the next round.

I'd then use the Conjuration complexity rules as guidelines for the amount of power and the Crafting skill required.  YS274.

Personally, I'd actually stat this up using Ritual, use Conjuring as a guideline, reduce the complexity by 1 and again for each step of quantity and size (thus 2 base, 1 for each step) since you're using material on hand and then just bump up the casting time on the time chart (1 shift of complexity equals a step up, as normal).  I'd then use evocation maneuvers to make this easier if I had Channeling.

[UmbraLux]

I'd start by treating it as a maneuver (purely for mechanical purposes) except requiring a number of shifts equal to the Craft skill required to create plus however many time increments you need to make it last.  This would make crude constructs lasting a day or so easy while highly skilled craftmanship and permanency are much harder to accomplish.  

If you want permanency easier, you could default to a larger time increment or even ignore that part of the equation.  But the idea of having cops wonder why there's blood on the pipe while the victim has knife wounds intrigues me...  

[JustADude]

I'd start by treating it as a maneuver (purely for mechanical purposes) except requiring a number of shifts equal to the Craft skill required to create plus however many time increments you need to make it last.  This would make crude constructs lasting a day or so easy while highly skilled craftmanship and permanency are much harder to accomplish.  

If you want permanency easier, you could default to a larger time increment or even ignore that part of the equation.  But the idea of having cops wonder why there's blood on the pipe while the victim has knife wounds intrigues me...  

Ah but, as I said, this is simply using Channeling/Evocation to assist in the crafting of an object that starts as a mundane item and ends as a differently shaped mundane item. It's not an effect that would be dispelled or revert, because the magic is in the process, not in the result.

[MijRai]

I'd treat it as manuevers for evocation (from the mechanics standpoint) as well. 'Aligned Pattern', 'Formed Into *Insert Shape Here*', etc. Like the others said, thaumaturgy is what would do so best, or using evocation manuevers to aid you. Or, you could flavor your evocation attacks as using magic to strengthen/sharpen the weapon to nigh impossible degrees for just a few moments to hit your target with that weapon 5 you might now have.

Unless someone counterspells the process, it can't be reverted, provided magic isn't actively doing it.

[InFerrumVeritas]

Ah but, as I said, this is simply using Channeling/Evocation to assist in the crafting of an object that starts as a mundane item and ends as a differently shaped mundane item. It's not an effect that would be dispelled or revert, because the magic is in the process, not in the result.

Right, but Magic Doesn't Last Forever.  It's sort of a thing in the setting.  Thus, your evocation can break down the metal, but you'd have to shape it with Crafting. 

Remember, you can use Thaumaturgy at Evocation's speeds, you're just increasing the complexity by 3 or 4 (to reduce it from "a few minuites" to "a few moments" or "instant").

[JustADude]

Personally, I'd actually stat this up using Ritual, use Conjuring as a guideline, reduce the complexity by 1 and again for each step of quantity and size (thus 2 base, 1 for each step) since you're using material on hand and then just bump up the casting time on the time chart (1 shift of complexity equals a step up, as normal).  I'd then use evocation maneuvers to make this easier if I had Channeling.

The character has enough Discipline, Lore, and Conviction (plus Aspects) to churn out a Ritual with that level of complexity on the fly, so that could work just dandy. If I'm doing both Channeling -AND- Ritual, I may just put it together under a -4 power with an appropriate name like Forge Magic, like the Changelings have Seelie or Unseelie magic.

Anyway, thanks for the help!

[BumblingBear]

You point your wand at the item in question and announce, "Reparo". 

[devonapple]

I would start with the Conjuring (Thaumaturgy) rules, with the advantage that manipulating an existing object makes the final product permanent (not Ectoplasm), and thereby doesn't require a duration (or it requires a several-shift premium which we will call duration), but crossing thresholds isn't a risk for it. Though that may set an unwise precedent that matter can be easily disposed of by transmuting it to other matter.

Here are the guidelines I came up with:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23613.0.html

Of especial importance would be the Modifiers section, about believability and complexity. The GM should determine how plot-powerful a given change would be, then add Complexity as desired. Also, rapidly altering a mundane object with moving parts should be just as hard - or even harder - than making one up out of Ectoplasm.

That said, all of this goes back to the lead-into-gold issue. With this power, why isn't the character taking dirt and other detritus and turning it into gold?

As for the Evocation option: if the GM allows it, then start with an Evocation Maneuver to place the Aspect "Malleable Form" or something, then use the free tag to Invoke for Effect: the GM can charge extra Fate Points if a desired Effect would require more effort.

[Haru]

Especially for a scion, sponsored magic should work well here. Changing the shape of an object into something (i assume) useful would be a simple task using craftsmanship or thaumaturgy as a replacement. With sponsored magic, you can do this at the speed of evocation, so that should be pretty much what you want.

Trying to do this with evocation would (for me) be the equivalent of a blind man going into a smithy and hitting around with a hammer for a few seconds and expecting to produce something useful. He might get REALLY lucky, but the chances are not good.

[devonapple]

I suppose the question here isn't "how do I do this right?" but "how do I do this quickly?" to which I think the best answer is Sponsored Magic from a source that has crafting or state-changing as its specialty, followed distantly by having enough of a Lore skill (or its equivalent) to hammer out a middling-expense ritual in just one ritual exchange.

[JustADude]

That said, all of this goes back to the lead-into-gold issue. With this power, why isn't the character taking dirt and other detritus and turning it into gold?

I'm not talking about transmutation of one substance into another substance, just using magic as a shortcut for the normal process of taking a hammer and beating the piece of metal into whatever shape it's supposed to end up in. Lead is still lead, iron is still iron, and conservation of mass stays in effect.

Especially for a scion, sponsored magic should work well here. Changing the shape of an object into something (i assume) useful would be a simple task using craftsmanship or thaumaturgy as a replacement. With sponsored magic, you can do this at the speed of evocation, so that should be pretty much what you want.

I suppose the question here isn't "how do I do this right?" but "how do I do this quickly?" to which I think the best answer is Sponsored Magic from a source that has crafting or state-changing as its specialty, followed distantly by having enough of a Lore skill (or its equivalent) to hammer out a middling-expense ritual in just one ritual exchange.

Sounds like that mostly hit the nail on the head, there; I think I was already unconsciously thinking about it when I mentioned rolling everything up under 'Forge Magic'.

Now, though, I'm trying to figure out what the Agenda should be; right now I'm thinking compulsions that would amount to the force being OCD about imperfections in metalwork, combined with antipathy towards Faeries of all types, since these spirits are so closely linked with iron and we all know what happens when you smack a Sidhe with a crowbar.

[Sanctaphrax]

Giving an example of what I think JustADude is talking about to make sure that I understand him.

Frederick the sorcerer has a metal pipe, which is a pretty lousy weapon (rating 1). He wants to make it better. So he calls up a blade of water and cuts off the end of the pipe at a sharp angle, making the pipe into a makeshift spear (weapon 2).

Is that what you mean?

[Haru]

Giving an example of what I think JustADude is talking about to make sure that I understand him.

Frederick the sorcerer has a metal pipe, which is a pretty lousy weapon (rating 1). He wants to make it better. So he calls up a blade of water and cuts off the end of the pipe at a sharp angle, making the pipe into a makeshift spear (weapon 2).

Is that what you mean?

As far as I understood it, it was more something along the lines of "I have a bucket full of screws and I need a sword. *handwave* Now I got a sword." So from any shape into any shape, not from lousy shape to better shape. But I like the idea of using magic that way, I have to keep that in mind.

[UmbraLux]

Ah but, as I said, this is simply using Channeling/Evocation to assist in the crafting of an object that starts as a mundane item and ends as a differently shaped mundane item. It's not an effect that would be dispelled or revert, because the magic is in the process, not in the result.

The issue with ignoring time requirements is simply that you start replacing thaumaturgy with a more powerful alternative.

Now, though, I'm trying to figure out what the Agenda should be; right now I'm thinking compulsions that would amount to the force being OCD about imperfections in metalwork, combined with antipathy towards Faeries of all types, since these spirits are so closely linked with iron and we all know what happens when you smack a Sidhe with a crowbar.

I'm not sure what your character's concept is, but you might simply look to the legendary smiths from your character's background.  Wayland, Hephaestus, Lugh, etc.