Summoning: Guidelines and Suggestions Welcomed!

[Crion]

I know that there is almost always someone asking about this topic, but I am still trying to get a better feel for it so I can be better suited to work with my players during the upcoming games.

Currently, I have one PC that specializes in summoning and one PC who is an ectomancer. So far, they haven't done anything with those set powers beyond prep and cancel when a party member did something to change things, but it did make me wonder if I was making things too difficult.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I am under the impression that, with both of these options, the players can use their set magical ability to gather information at a difficulty equal to what it would be to actively walk out to get the info, even if it would be impossible. An in-game example was the ectomancer summoning a spirit to learn of an NPCs lineage; I set it at a 6 Shift difficulty, as that would be the difficulty if a character had gone to the library to find the same thing. Does this seem correct?

Another question that came up was the limitations of summoning spirits and demons; what if they wanted to do a full blown seance or ritual to bring in the entity for multiple questions. Would that add to the difficulty, become a contested roll over time, or be scaled at the strength of plot?

One concern I had: summoning for purposes of possession. I know the ectomancer wouldn't force a spirit into another body, but I have to wonder if our Demonologist would summon a demon to be placed into a body. How would you scale that for the summoning and control? I would assume another, rather difficult spell would be needed to "take out" the victim, but as I haven't had the chance to really run into the situation, I thought I would present that here.

I remember that there were notes on summoning over at the Dresden Files RPG Website, with different ways to scale the difficulty and options for everything ranging from a scene's worth of help to permanent dominion, and while I found some of it to be interesting, I found the difficulties to be rather high to consider using, even for information purposes. Has anyone used that rules variant to any degree?

Finally, any notes or samples of summoning/binding that you've used in game would be greatly appreciated. Seriously. This is something that is rather different and, to me, feels more like a plot device for NPCs, but difficult for me to scale for PC use.

Thanks in advance for any input or help!

--Crion

[devonapple]

Summoning is going to be costly, but you aren't alone in hoping for a cheaper option. We've had a semi-recent thread about this:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23624.0.html

Ultimately, as you mentioned, Summoning is a supercharged Contacts roll for minions or mooks, and a plot device effect for more powerful agents.

[InFerrumVeritas]

So, I run summoning close to, but slightly different from, RAW.  Here's how I do it.

Two or Three Spells.

First Spell: Containment
Containing an entity is incredibly crucial.  Its complexity is determined by two factors.  Duration and Block Strength.  Duration is determined by the time chart with one shift or each step above a few minutes.  The Block Strength is equal to the entity's highest usable skill+5 (Lore check may be required to determine, I usually recommend to go higher than necessary just in case).

Second Spell: Summoning
Summoning the entity is the simple part.  Complexity is equal by the entity's Conviction Score+5 OR double the entity's refresh, whichever is higher.  [Note the second bit is a house rule to make summoning things like the Erlking harder]

Third Spell: Binding the Entity
Binding the entity can take multiple forms.  Total control is the hardest accomplish.  Some control is easier, but less effective.  Limited control is tenuous. 

Total Control is equal to the entity's mental stress track+entity's Discipline+25 (less can be used if you just want to place consequences). 
Some Control is equal to entity's Discipline+5 and places aspects which can be invoked for effect.
Limited Control is essentially just a mental grapple (Entity's Conviction+5+1*exchange of effect)

[Sanctaphrax]

The results of the thread posted by devonapple were summarized here: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,24744.45.html.

These rules might not be quite what you're looking for (they're aimed towards people who want to create minions) but I'm pretty proud of them and so I take every opportunity to share them.

[Tedronai]

If the purposes of the demon-summoning is to have the then-possessed victim under your control, simply model it as a direct mind-control attack (consequences that are tagged-/invoked-for-effect to instigate compels for a minor spirit that can exert its will temporarily, or a full taken-out result for a more powerful spirit that exerts total control).

[Wolfwood2]

So, I run summoning close to, but slightly different from, RAW.  Here's how I do it.

Two or Three Spells.

My problem with summoning is that two or three spells consumes an unacceptably large amount of game time.  Doing one ritual can usually fit acceptably into the story.  Do three rituals, and once you fit in all the declarations/mini-scenes and such you need to do in order to pull off a summoning ritual, it hardly seems worth it.

[Crion]

@devonapple and Santaphrax: Thanks for the links. As you may have noticed, they are a bit bigger on the creating a beasty instead of summoning and controlling something, but it is at least food for thought. Thank you both for that.

@InFerrumVeritas: Interesting approach but, as Wolfwood2 already noted, it can be horribly time consuming. One of my spellcasters, working with the party (thankfully), spent almost an entire session to put together a single spell. I don't want to think about what would happen if they needed to do three to complete the task at hand.

@Tedronai: This was the approach I had in mind, but I was curious if you needed to have a separate spirit summoned first, or how you would go about getting that spirit summoned and under your control.


Thanks for the input so far! If anyone else has anything they'd like to add, I'd like to see it!

--Crion

[devonapple]

@devonapple and Santaphrax: Thanks for the links. As you may have noticed, they are a bit bigger on the creating a beasty instead of summoning and controlling something, but it is at least food for thought. Thank you both for that.

Yeah, we approached it from the other end, with the goal of making a one-ritual option possible, and to provide guidance on how to price things.

Also, if it hasn't been brought up before, Evil Hat posted their own "Quick’n'Dirty’n'Optional Summoning Guidelines":
http://www.dresdenfilesrpg.com/2011/01/19/summoning/

It boils down to "do enough shifts to kill the thing outright" or "inflict consequences you can invoke for control" and "your table, your rules."

My problem with summoning is that two or three spells consumes an unacceptably large amount of game time.  Doing one ritual can usually fit acceptably into the story.  Do three rituals, and once you fit in all the declarations/mini-scenes and such you need to do in order to pull off a summoning ritual, it hardly seems worth it.

The summoning should only take as much game time as its plot significance. The GM is encouraged to handwave or greatly reduce the focus on preparation if he feels like it would bog down gameplay.

If a given summoning *does* have enough plot impact that the GM will insist that all three rituals be enacted, then it should involve the whole party, with everyone generating Aspects to contribute to the effort, and more of a story given for each of the Aspects generated.

[Tedronai]

@Tedronai: This was the approach I had in mind, but I was curious if you needed to have a separate spirit summoned first, or how you would go about getting that spirit summoned and under your control.

Basically, the fact that you're using a summoned spirit to control your victim on your behalf rather than simply reaching into their minds and controlling them directly is just fluff.

This is the cardinal principle, as far as I'm concerned, in DFrpg spellcasting:
Figure out the end result that you want your spell to achieve, and work backwards from there to find out how you should model it mechanically.

[devonapple]

Basically, the fact that you're using a summoned spirit to control your victim on your behalf rather than simply reaching into their minds and controlling them directly is just fluff.

This is the cardinal principle, as far as I'm concerned, in DFrpg spellcasting:
Figure out the end result that you want your spell to achieve, and work backwards from there to find out how you should model it mechanically.

My apologies - I had misunderstood the hypothetical about using a summoned spirit to control a target mortal's mind. I agree that such a situation would simply require "taking out" the target and rewriting one of his Aspects to reflect the possession.

The long way around is to summon and bind a demon which itself has the Spirit Form/Domination/etc. power suite, then bargain with it to accomplish the same thing. And A GM may still insist on that.

But the "reason from effect" approach encouraged by this system is much more simply and elegantly served by your suggestion.