Refinement Question

[Holocron.Coder]

So, Refinement can give you +1 to two different element-stat areas (earth control, earth power, let's say). You can also get 2 item slots, which, assuming we go for focus slots, we get +1 to two different element-spec-stat (earth offense control, earth offense power).

The first bonus is clearly better, so why (outside of enchanted items) would you ever go for item slots?

[UmbraLux]

Specialization bonuses are subject to the same pyramid / column structure requirements as skills. 

[citadel97501]

So, Refinement can give you +1 to two different element-stat areas (earth control, earth power, let's say). You can also get 2 item slots, which, assuming we go for focus slots, we get +1 to two different element-spec-stat (earth offense control, earth offense power).

The first bonus is clearly better, so why (outside of enchanted items) would you ever go for item slots?

Specialty bonuses, require that you follow the pyramid, so after a certain point its always better to switch over to Foci which only require that all the bonuses on a Focus be the same amount.  In addition it is entirely reasonable for a Foci being left behind, or broken as a compel from the ST providing you a fate point, this is a lot harder with specialty bonuses.  

[Holocron.Coder]

Yeah, but even spreading the specialization bonus out over other elements, it still comes ahead (and you can't be "disarmed" from the bonus).

[InFerrumVeritas]

Focus items can increase your casting bonuses independent of two rather important restrictions.

First, specializations have to follow the "stack" like skills.  Focus items do not.  This allows you greater specialization at the cost of versatility and effectiveness.  

Second, specializations are limited by your Lore (to a maximum of +5 at Superb).  Focus items can add to this.

Thus, to get a +5 in Control for one element, it would cost 7 refresh (1 point from evocation, the other 14 from Refinement 7 times) using specialization (reasonably this can be met at 6 refresh if you put both your evocation Focus Item Slots into Offensive and Defensive Control).  

Using items, you end up with it costing 4 refresh (first items go into offensive and defensive control, refinement 4 times for 8 additional focus items in the same).  This can reasonably be met at 3 refresh if you assume your evocation specialization is in Control for the same element.

The benefit of the 7 refresh option is that you're good with other elements and don't need to have your foci with you.  The benefit of the items option is that it is cheaper to get to bigger numbers.  Of course, the two can and should be used together.

[Holocron.Coder]

Focus items can increase your casting bonuses independent of two rather important restrictions.

First, specializations have to follow the "stack" like skills.  Focus items do not.  This allows you greater specialization at the cost of versatility and effectiveness. 

Second, specializations are limited by your Lore (to a maximum of +5 at Superb).  Focus items can add to this.

Thus, to get a +5 in Control for one element, it would cost 7 refresh (1 point from evocation, the other 14 from Refinement 7 times) using specialization (reasonably this can be met at 6 refresh if you put both your evocation Focus Item Slots into Offensive and Defensive Control). 

Hrmm. I suppose it makes sense, put like this. I though the pyramid applied to items as well. The bonus on items has to be the same for all aspects? No +2 earth offensive control, +1 earth offensive power?
Using items, you end up with it costing 4 refresh (first items go into offensive and defensive control, refinement 4 times for 8 additional focus items in the same).  This can reasonably be met at 3 refresh if you assume your evocation specialization is in Control for the same element.

The benefit of the 7 refresh option is that you're good with other elements and don't need to have your foci with you.  The benefit of the items option is that it is cheaper to get to bigger numbers.  Of course, the two can and should be used together.

That makes sense to me, I suppose. The focus item bonuses have to be the same? No +2 earth offensive control, +1 earth offensive power focus item?

[UmbraLux]

Yeah, but even spreading the specialization bonus out over other elements, it still comes ahead (and you can't be "disarmed" from the bonus).

Sure.  And this is generally what I tend to lean towards - if only to avoid carrying a duffel bag full of focus items.  However...a wizard with six refresh spent on refinements might have either of the following:

• Specializations only
  • Wind +3 (power & control)
  • Water +2
  • Spirit +1
• One specialization, six points of focus items
  • Wind Spec +1 (power & control)
  • Offensive Focus Item # 1 & 2 - +5 (assuming Lore is high enough)

So the second wizard gains +6 to offensive wind spells while the first is at +3.  Of course the second wizard did so at the cost of (fairly) extreme specialization...and very large focus items.

Granted, this isn't a likely scenario.  Most will have more of a mix of specializations and focus items.  Whether a wizard leans towards being really good at one thing or learning several options is up to individual taste and personality.  Overall, that's a good thing.  :)

[InFerrumVeritas]

Exactly.  I personally prefer something along the lines of this (assuming Submerged, standard Wizard Template).

Superb Discipline and Conviction, Great Lore

Evocation Specialization Bonus and Focus Items: +1 Earth Control
Evocation Focus Items: +1 Offensive Earth Control, +1 Defensive Earth Power
Refinement 1 Specialization: +2 Earth Control, +1 Earth Power
Refinement 2 Focus Items: +2 Offensive Earth Control, 2 Enchanted Item Slots

This'll leave me with a total of attacks at Legendary+1 and the ability to call up 7 shifts blocks as rote spells (Epic control).  I can still cast other spells at Superb (say with Spirit and Air).  In addition, I haven't over specialized (not used any of my Thaum foci for Evocation, still have some enchanted items).

[Note, my numbers are running totals, not actual bonuses from the power]

If I wanted to build a combat specialized caster, it would look more like:

Evocation Specialization Bonus: +1 Earth Control
Evocation Focus Items: +1 Offensive Earth Control, +1 Defensive Earth Power
Thaumaturgy Focus Items: +2 Offensive Earth Control, +2 Defensive Earth Power
Refinement 1 (Specialization): +2 Earth Control, +1 Earth Power
Refinement 2 (Focus Items): +3 Offensive Earth Control, +1 Defensive Earth Control

This pushes me to Legendary+2 attacks and 8 shift rote blocks.  

[Obsid]

If you work with a five element system, then the degree of specialization is severely limited. Theoretically, you could have 2 Fantastic, 2 Great, 2 Good, 2 Fair, & 2 Average. However I haven't seen a rule that allows you to retrain your specializations, which restricts you A LOT. Here's my math.

For the sake of simplicity, I'm going to replace the 10 things you can specialize with letters A - J.
A   B   C   D   E   F   G   H   I   J
0   1   2   2   4   6   7   8   11   13
1   3   4   6   9   11   13         
3   5   9   12                  
5   10                        
10                           
0 Is what you get by taking evocation. Numbers are Refinement numbers. So 12 is the 12th time you take refinement. If you can find a better pyramid please show me

Notice, you cannot take another rank at +1 because there's nothing for you to take it in. You can't take another rank in +2 because then you have 4 +2's and 2 +1's. You can't take another rank in +3 because then you have 3 +3's and 2 +2's. You can't take another rank in +4 because then you have 2 +4's and 1 +3. You can't take another rank in +5 because then you have 2 +5's and 0 +4's.  So that's as high as you can get. 1 Superb, 1 Great, 2 Goods, 3 Fairs, and 3 Averages.

Unless there's some rule I can't find that would allow you to retrain this (and if there is please show me), or your table houserules it, then that's the inherent limit of Specialization. And even if you have some way to retrain, you're still locked by the theoretical pyramid mentioned ahead (with 2 in each step). So mixing and matching Item slots and specialization slots is pretty useful. And since it takes 10 refresh by my count for 1 Superb via specialization, or 3 refresh for an item.

[EldritchFire]

So, Refinement can give you +1 to two different element-stat areas (earth control, earth power, let's say). You can also get 2 item slots, which, assuming we go for focus slots, we get +1 to two different element-spec-stat (earth offense control, earth offense power).

The first bonus is clearly better, so why (outside of enchanted items) would you ever go for item slots?

Only wizards can take the first option. Sorcerers and focused practitioners can only take items.

-EF

[Becq]

@ Eldritch: Sorcerers can get one level of (unrestricted) refinement per skill (Evocation/Thaumaturgy).

@ Obsid: You needn't buy Refinements one at a time.  Save up a couple of Refresh, then spend them together.  Note also that Sponsored Magic gives you additional 'elements' to focus in, which increases your theoretical maximum, but also note that your specializations are capped by your Lore.

[Todjaeger]

Only wizards can take the first option. Sorcerers and focused practitioners can only take items.

-EF

Actually not quite true.  Sorcerers are restricted by the template to only being able to take a single Refinement (-1) per spell ability, i.e. a single instance of Refinement for Evocation and a single instance of Refinement for Thaumaturgy.  What the sorcerer chooses to do with the options available from that point of Refinement is up to them.  With Evocation it could be used to get additional focus item slots, Power or Control bonuses, or additional elements.  Whatever the player and GM agree upon.

With a focused practioner, there is no restriction on their Refinements per the RAW.

Incidentally, and this would really be more of a house rule sort of thing, but I could see characters where the need to abide by the skill stack limits no longer applies, or that the stack limit has been 're-balanced'.  Consider for instance the write-up for Gard.  She has been running around for a millenium, and over the course of 1,000 years has had plenty of time to develop different skills.  I could see where in an extremely long-running campaign, or with the entry of a plot-level character, that the ability to have a rank of at least Fair (+2) in every skill would be reasonable.  I don't see why this couldn't also hold true for specializations, albeit I would expect that the only casters who this would apply to would be true masters like members of the Senior Council, or other similarly learned practioners.

In my opinion, a player who has a character that develops this sort of problem has likely been getting advanced a bit too faster, but that might just be me.

-Cheers

[Becq]

With a focused practioner, there is no restriction on their Refinements per the RAW.

Templates restrict you to buying only those powers allowed by the template.  Focused Practitioners cannot get specializations.  (Though they could, for example, become a Sorcerer or Apprentice Wizard, then a Wizard, any of which would allow specializations.

Note, by the way, that the *real* restriction is that you can only buy powers that are appropriate to your High Concept.  Templates are just a convenient package deal that defines guidelines for which powers should be considered appropriate.  And are subject to adjustment, of course.

[InFerrumVeritas]

If you have Ritual or Channeling, you can't use specializations. 

This applies to Sponsored magic as well.

You can still take Refinement for items.

[Tsunami]

One more thing that Focus Items can do that Specialization Bonuses cannot:

Focus Item-Bonuses can be changed.
Once you buy a specialization bonus it's fixed. Not so a Focus item... it can be changed at certain milestones.