Thaumaturgy: Declarations and Maneuvers

[devonapple]

For Thaumaturgy, how are folks generally handling Lore Declarations?:

A) True Declarations:
no in-game time is spent on them, no clocks running in any way, just:
"I raced a Werewolf earlier this week and collected some of its sweat, so I make an Endurance roll to gain the Aspect 'Werewolf's Toil.'"

B) Scenes/Maneuvers:
each one advances the game clock depending on how long it should take:
"We have until midnight to gather supplies for this ritual. I'll be at the target site at 5 pm, sneaking in to get a "Sympathetic Link," then on to the forest with a pizza at 7:30 to get some "Pixie Dust," then I'll hit the shore around 8 to harvest some "Nereid Strands," then off to the Nevernever to beg some "Unicorn Hair" from my patron around 9:30, then...."

C) A combination of either/or depending on Plot.

D) Other

[Haru]

I think a combination of the two is the best way to go. Although option A should not be used as a short cut to not "waste" time on declarations. If for example the player had said earlier in the story, he would stock up on his magic supplies, I would let him roll resources to see, if he got what he now needs, if it is simple stuff like candles, playdoh, things like that. Anything that would be a special order, he would have to get... well, specially ordered.

In any case, I don't think there is a need to make it harder than it needs to be. Harry for example could simply do a contacts check for pixie dust, because of his pixie housekeeping service, to declare that one of them is always around that he could ask for a donation. He wouldn't have to go out and get it.

Anything the character has no way of getting easily should however be done by option B.

[UmbraLux]

I think you're talking Declarations (A) and Maneuvers (B) - if I've understood you correctly.  Your use of the term "declaration" in both may be throwing me off.  

In any case, Declarations are retroactive by definition.  They declare something as a "known truth".  For story purposes it may well be something just discovered, but the fact was probably pre-existing.  Maneuvers are more proactive, they're setting up a condition.

In thaumaturgy either may be used - probably both for spells of any complexity.  I use the one aspect (either Declaration or Maneuver) per skill per person as a general rule of thumb.  They're not just Lore either - your racing the werewolf example sounds more like Athletics to me...

[EdgeOfDreams]

My group uses a mix.  Currently, I'm playing a sort of Artificer (Focused Practitioner with Ritual(Crafting) and lots of item slots) who runs a shop called "The Art and Craft" with the aspect "I Run a Clean Shop".  The GM and I agree that's sufficient justification for Resources and Craftsmanship rolls to retroactively declare "Oh, I've got some of that in the back" type stuff.  On the other hand, when he makes declarations/maneuvers based on Lore, Discipline, Contacts, etc. it tends to take more time.  Also, being away from his shop would significantly reduce what he can 'get away with' so to speak.

[Becq]

I'm going to vote 'combination'.  There are several places in the descriptions for Thaum prep that imply that time is taken to do so.  For example, on YS262:

ŠŠ Make declarations: You can declare a mini-scene relevant to preparation, where you use a skill and create a temporary aspect to tag.

The implication to me is that there is in fact a scene that occurs, but that the scene occurs by way of declaration.  For example, instead of saying "I think I need a mop as a component for this spell to clean my room ... I hop into my car.  How's traffic?  Can I find anyone to show me where the mops are?  (Etc)", you say instead "The next thing I do is head down to the store and buy a mop for use in my spell.  Does a resources roll sound like is covers this?"

On the other hand, in some cases it might involve finding a use for something that you logically already have access to.  For example, you might not need to establish that you already have a mop ready-to-hand; instead you are making a declaration that this mop is special, and that because you've had this mop for many years and used it to clean your kitchen many time, it is a particularly fitting component.  Doing this takes no time for the character beyond the time it takes to grab the mop from wherever it is.  Or perhaps the broom needs to be specially prepared through some minor ritual first, so it *does* take time.

There are a lot of vagarities in the rules, so it's probably best to let your character take a stab at simply narrating his prep, then negotiate a bit if necessary until you both agree that it's reasonable.

[devonapple]

I think you're talking Declarations (A) and Maneuvers (B) - if I've understood you correctly.  Your use of the term "declaration" in both may be throwing me off.  

I know, it is confusing, but what I mean to refer to are Lore Declarations for Thaumaturgy, which some treat as a regular Declaration, but others (myself included) have treated as if they were more like Maneuvers. I'll edit the question to be more clear.

Potions mention explicitly that their Lore Declarations can be retroactive (like true Declarations) which does imply that traditional Lore Declarations don't work that way.

Also, I let my players roll extra Declarations/Maneuvers, which aren't intended for Lore Declarations, but are intended to be tagged during the casting process.

[Tedronai]

I think that the term 'Lore Declaration' is still misleading.

A Declaration using the Lore skill, unless otherwise stated, is treated no differently from a Declaration using any other skill.

A Declaration made as per Thaumaturgy's 'How to Do It' (YS262) "Make Declarations" option is not a Declaration is the usual game sense.  Nor is it necessarily based on Lore, though.

Conventional Declarations, using Lore or otherwise, contribute to Thaumaturgy via the first bullet point.

In addition to that, players may 'Declare' scenes as the more immersive alternative to the final 'skip a scene' option, and with a commensurately larger contribution to their efforts.

[devonapple]

I think that the term 'Lore Declaration' is still misleading.

It is misleading, but the term seems to have become common parlance for the specific Declarations used to "make up the deficit between your Lore and the total complexity of the spell" (YS 262).

But this is a good reminder to be more fast and loose with these Declarations.

[Tedronai]

Declarations used to "make up the deficit between your Lore and the total complexity of the spell" (YS 262).

Even then, it remains misleading, given the confusion illuminated in my previous post surrounding the use of the word 'Declaration'

[sinker]

Potions mention explicitly that their Lore Declarations can be retroactive (like true Declarations) which does imply that traditional Lore Declarations don't work that way.

A Declaration made as per Thaumaturgy's 'How to Do It' (YS262) "Make Declarations" option is not a Declaration is the usual game sense.  Nor is it necessarily based on Lore, though.

I think I see an issue that you guys are having. You seem to be looking at YS262 as the definitive rules for that process, whereas they are actually a summary of the rules on YS268-270. Specifically YS269 deals with declarations as part of the process and says:

As part of preparation, you can use your skills
to declare you have access to some resource or
advantage that will help you cast the spell. This
generally works like a normal declaration. You
describe what kind of advantage or resource
you’re trying to garner, the GM sets a difficulty,
and you roll the appropriate skill.
If the roll is successful, put a temporary
aspect on the spell. You can tag that temporary
aspect to subtract from the deficit, again at the
rate of two shifts for every aspect.

So declarations as part of the preparation step of thaumaturgy are run like any other declaration. Except when they aren't, but that's later on that page....

In answer to the original question I usually do either depending on what makes sense. If they have an aspect or excuse that makes their declaration more likely (I.E. changelings having potential access to fey resources, or wizards having access to arcane knowledge/things, etc) then I run it like (A, however if their declaration doesn't make immediate sense ("My wizard just happens to have this unique faith-based item for no reason at all") then I encourage them to treat it like (B and go make it happen themselves.

[Tedronai]

I think I see an issue that you guys are having. You seem to be looking at YS262 as the definitive rules for that process, whereas they are actually a summary of the rules on YS268-270. Specifically YS269 deals with declarations as part of the process and says:

So declarations as part of the preparation step of thaumaturgy are run like any other declaration. Except when they aren't, but that's later on that page....

(bolding added)

So...
"You're wrong...unless you look farther down the page"?

[devonapple]

"You're wrong...unless you look farther down the page"?

I didn't infer "You're wrong" as an implicit or explicit part of his assistance.

[sinker]

Meh, the part seems contradictory to me, so I choose to work it the way I want to, however for the purposes of the two comments I responded to (That declarations can be retroactive and that these are true declarations that are run like any other declaration) the comment still stands. If you look later in the paragraphs it's a little weird about duration, stating that it's kinda like a retroactive maneuver and kinda like an actual maneuver. But like I said I ignore that bit because I like the way I run it.

[Taran]

I'm bumping this thread because I'd started a similar one and still want to hear people's opinions.