Using Thaumaturgy for Evocation-like effects in Combat

[InFerrumVeritas]

So we have a character in our party who has Thaumaturgy and Evocation, but his Evocation is tied to an Item of Power (it allows him to cast when wielding, the focus items from Evocation are part of the item of power).  Our GM allowed it because the player isn't really very savy and felt that a boost in power would make us more equal (since our GM considers me a bit more savy and felt that I was hogging the effectiveness spotlight a bit).  

Well, our regular GM couldn't make it the other night.  I stepped in as a Guest GM.  It was fun, but an interesting situation came up.  The group had to go into a hospital.  The one wizard in the group (an apprentice Warden) used ritual to help control his hexing (until combat, where I ruled he couldn't control the energy if he was actively casting).  The player in question (with the IoP) was compelled to leave his staff in the car so his power was more limited (I gave him a fate point, which he then used to resist a hexing compel later).  It worked out pretty well.

However, then combat started.  The player felt a bit useless (he had some enchanted items which he could use) because he couldn't cast combat spells and wondered if he could cast thaumaturgy during combat.  I didn't know.  I gave him another fate point (because I felt bad for him for not foreseeing the consequences of the compel I placed earlier and not having an answer to a question I should have seen coming) which he spent for a temporary power (Refinement for focus items, then spent on more enchanted items) for the scene justifying it as anticipating going to a hospital and preparing some useful items to use in lieu of his staff.

Everything went well, and I'm okay with my off the cuff handling of everything (not exactly RAW but it kept things moving without referencing rulebooks, slowing the game down, or leaving a player feeling left out of a game).  

However, it got me thinking about using Thaumaturgy in combat.  It says that Thaumaturgy can create evocation like effects, but I wouldn't let it work like evocation because that would devalue the power.  I came up with a way to handle it and am wondering what the board thinks.

Thaumaturgy for Evocation Effects in Combat
Determining Complexity:  There are two parts for determining the complexity for Thaumaturgic Evocation.  First, you figure the base complexity of the Evocation.  This is the number of shifts it would take to perform the evocation.  Then you determine the targeting roll.  Unlike other Thaumaturgic contests, it is assumes that you have a target aware enough to make a roll.  Thus, you decide the number shifts you'd like to target with.  These two numbers together determine the complexity.
Example: Archibald Sinclair can't use Evocation but wants to use his Thaumaturgic talent to shoot lightening at the Troll attacking his friend Jenny.  First, he sneaks up on the troll and snags a bit of hair (a Burglary Maneuver vs. the Troll's Alertness restricted by his stealth) from it.  He also makes a Lore maneuver to draw a magic circle on the ground with his foot before settling inside it.  He knows he'll have to hit the troll with a bit of force, so he wants to use four shifts of power to make the spell a Weapon 4 attack.  The Troll.  He wants to attack at Superb (vs. the Troll's Good Athletics).  Thus the complexity of this spell is 9.  He's got Superb Lore and invokes the two aspects (from his declaration and maneuver) to push this to 9.  He uses his Great Discipline and Conviction to summon the amount of power in three rounds (3 shifts per round, rolling Good, Great, and Legendary in the rounds).  Finally he releases the spell.

In the example, total casting time amounted to 5 exchanges (one for the Lore declaration, one for the Burglary maneuver, three to draw the power).  

Typically, this would be manageable as an Evocation effect in a single exchange.  Thus, evocation is clearly valuable for a combat wizard, but Thaumaturgy is still an option.

(Of course, the most effective way to do this would be to do a weapon 2 effect to bypass the armor and inflict stress and then channel the remaining 7 shifts of power into accuracy yielding an Epic Attack which the Troll would have no chance of defending against)

What do you think?

EDIT:  Of course, this also means that a spellcaster can do Weapon 1 attacks at their Conviction score-1 for accuracy for no mental stress so long as they can make the Control roll and their Lore (or Complexity) is at least equal to their Conviction...interesting.

[wyvern]

Short answer: By RAW (rules-as-written), no.  Regardless of the casting time, a ritual requires preparation time of at least a few minutes.
In the particular instance you've described, you could probably get away with letting it work, however - particularly if the preparation was dealt with by a maneuver (something like "chalk circle on the floor"), but some care should still be exercised - allowing combat speed thaumaturgy will be horribly broken if anyone tries to cheese it, due to a combination of zero mental stress with the ability to charge up over multiple rounds (a power 10 attack being rather more than twice as useful as two power 5 attacks).

I'd argue that RAI (rules-as-intended) is that thaumaturgy should never be used in combat, and the rules for how to cast a spell are there to a) provide a mechanism for rituals to blow up in your face if you're trying for things that should be out of your reach, and 2) to allow for situations like a show-down where you're racing to stop Mr. Evil Wizard from finishing his ritual to doom the world to a plague of sparrows.

That said, there are people with very different opinions out there, as this topic (thaumaturgy in combat) has come up a number of times.  Rule for your game as you see fit.

[Haru]

I think the way you handled it should be about right. I wouldn't even have the character snatch some of the trolls hair, because he can see him, which would be enough to create a link for me. Of course it would fail automatically, once the troll was out of sight.
And remember, that the character can't move around much, or it would destroy the construct of the spell, so any dodge roll would have to default to terrible, or the spell would automatically be disrupted and cause fallout or backlash.


Some other things you should think about:
- You can use an enchanted item even after you reach the maximum uses per session by simply paying 1 stress for each use.
- Leave open one or two enchanted item slots and replace them with potion slots. Potions can be either created before going into an adventure, or you can make a lore check to see if you are prepared for just such an occasion and have a relevant potion at hand. And remember that potions don't need to be liquid, the sunshine handkerchief Harry has in SF would be a potion, too, where the rules are concerned. That way, a character specialized in thaumaturgy can contribute quite a lot to a fight, even without having to cast a ritual.
And potions can be enhanced by declarations on the spot, for example to make a binding spell like Harry did with the rope of unicorn hair, you could make a contacts declaration, that you have some friends in summer, that can provide you with some unicorn hair, and a lore(4) potion-slot becomes a 6-shift binding.

[devonapple]

Narratively, Thaumaturgy trades speed for power. Although a few effects in the Thaumaturgy section (like Worldwalking and opening Portals) are arguably handled in the fiction in a matter of seconds, in combat exchanges, your garden-variety, basic Thaumaturgy requires minutes of commitment, at the very least. MOst gaming tables are going to (rightly) take that to mean no in-combat Thaumaturgy without a Sponsored Magic justification.

However, combat exchanges are, themselves, fluid, moving at the speed of Plot. Depending on the scale of a conflict, a given gaming group may opt to shoehorn in some small-scale Thaumaturgy, as long as the Declarations are kept to a minimum, but the risk of having an opponent interrupt the process should always be a threat hanging over the head of a spellcaster exposing himself in such a blatant way.

EDIT:  Of course, this also means that a spellcaster can do Weapon 1 attacks at their Conviction score-1 for accuracy for no mental stress so long as they can make the Control roll and their Lore (or Complexity) is at least equal to their Conviction...interesting.

That would also require numerous Sympathetic Link Declarations and/or Fate Points to re-tag previously tagged Sympathetic Link Declarations.

[EdgeOfDreams]

I've got no problem with in-combat Thaumaturgy. The only caveat is that every declaration or maneuver requires an exchange to execute. So, in your troll example, the whole thing would take 5 rounds (1 to grab hair, 1 for setting up the circle, 3 for actual casting).

[InFerrumVeritas]

Thanks.  I know for blocks and maneuvers, this becomes problematic.

Possibly adding 3 shifts to reduce the preparation of a few minutes to a few moments, requiring one exchange for preparation (then the standard number of exchanges for gathering power)?  Four shifts would reduce this to instant and thus remove the one round requirement (making Evocation Speed Thaumaturgy Evocations cost 4 Shifts extra).  Considering the amount of time it would then take to draw this kind of power, I don't think it'd really be worth it (you'd be getting your ass handed to you over and over again unless you had a pretty solid party holding the baddies off).  

This makes Blocks and Maneuvers somewhat viable in combat (although expensive in terms of time), but Attacks rather difficult.  Also, a bad roll would mean you'd likely kill yourself (a Good Weapon 1 attack would cost 8 Shifts and take a minimum of two rounds to cast for someone trying to avoid mental stress with a Conviction of Great or Superb, and a failed roll would result in an 8 Stress hit that one could divide into two hits, one to physical and one to mental).

In the case of Dodge rolls, I'd probably say that one would also have to roll Discipline to continue to control the spell each time one dodged.  This could get dangerous very quickly.

And yeah, I'd have every declaration and maneuver take at least an exchange.

[Becq]

Some time ago, there was a discussion on this board about Wizards shapechanging themselves via magic.  The devs commented, and the general gist of the response was along the lines of "Sure, you can do it, but not regularly.  If you want to do it regularly, you need to buy a shapechanging power (and call it magic if you like)."

I think the same logic applies here.  It may be technically possible to throw out a lightning-fast Thaumaturgy (at least lightning-fast relative to Thaumaturgy) when a dramatic opportunity presents itself, but you shouldn't be doing it all the time.  If you find youself wanting to, then you should be buying Evocation and using that, instead.

On the one hand, I'd like to have a system that handles situations like Dresden casting a tracking Thaumaturgy during a chase scene.  On the other hand, I don't want to see people just leave Evocation off of their character sheets because Thaum is more versatile, powerful, and just as quick when it needs to be -- and doesn't cost stress, either!

Perhaps an answer is to require a Fate point any time a player wants to do a Thaum spell at combat-round speed?  This would make it generally possible to do when you *need* to do it, but would make it too 'expensive' to do regularly...

[wyvern]

Perhaps an answer is to require a Fate point any time a player wants to do a Thaum spell at combat-round speed?  This would make it generally possible to do when you *need* to do it, but would make it too 'expensive' to do regularly...

This is a good notion, though I'd make sure to qualify it with "if the game table agrees it's dramatically appropriate".

[Becq]

This is a good notion, though I'd make sure to qualify it with "if the game table agrees it's dramatically appropriate".

I think I'd probably consider almost all of the rules to have that caveat, but true enough.   

[InFerrumVeritas]

Personally, I'd like a system where one could use Thaumaturgy for Evocation effects but have it be incredibly suboptimal (like requiring 8 shifts of power or a Weapon 1 Good attack, 8 shifts for a Great Block, etc. and having both examples likely take two turns with the chance of any time you'd have to dodge risking losing control of any and all energy).  That makes Evocation worth it (more power, more speed, less risk). 

This would be different from granting temporary access to a power (like using Thaum to Shapechange), where I would require Fate Points.  It'd be more like using Thaumaturgy to create aspects related to shapechanging (SuperStrong, WolfShaped, etc.) without actually granting the powers (Supernatural Strength, Beast Change).  That's also a suboptimal option as it is less effective.

[fjeastman]

One of the characters in my game is an exorcist, having only Ritual (Diabolism) in terms of magic.  I let him do Thaumaturgy in combat, based on the conceit that anything at or under his Lore he has the stuff for, and anything above he has to pull in somehow to meet the Lore deficit (and that this FUNCTIONALLY makes Thaumaturgy unusable in combat, but not EXPLICITLY making it unusable in combat).  

His Lore is +5, so he can perform a 5-shift ritual by forming the magic construct on Exchange 1, and attempting to power it on Exchange 2 - n.  This is likely to get you little.

He's used it to make a quick-and-dirty 5-shift Ward before ... being a Diabolist it is only effective against demons.  Exchange 1:  "I'll make a ward!  I grab my chalk and put down a circle."  Exchange 2:  "I need to get this circle up, I'll haul down all 5 shifts of power." ... but with a Conviction of 4 and a Discipline of 4 he has to take a point of stress and make a +1 roll for Discipline.

Now, outside of the norm, I've allowed him to make attacks with Thaumaturgy.  Not Evocation-style attacks, but we based it off scaling WAY back on the "Lasting Change In A Target" method of "winning a conflict in one roll" ... by turning that back into "winning a conflict with a bunch of rolls".  I.E. - Turning Lore into a slow, dangerous, cumbersome attack skill.

Since it only works on demons, we characterize it as starting and continuing an exorcism in combat.  He has the sympathetic link (his exorcism tools) and can frame the ritual (Exorcise The Demons!) in Exchange 1 and fuel in Exchange 2.  That being cumbersome the player asked if he could take the standard two-actions-at-once penalty and do both in one exchange at a -1 to both.  It works for our game, so I let it go.  Essentially allowing him to make a 4-shift Weapon:0 attack.  

In Evocation, the power of the spell (Conviction) sets the Weapon:X level while the control (Discipline) is the targeting roll.  Since we were basing off the permanent change, the complexity of the spell (Discipline) sets the flat un-rolled attack value and the control (Discipline) merely determines backlash, fallout, or success.  

So where he might have a ritual of Complexity 29 to ... target the Demon's Presence, account for a +4 roll, account for 2/4/6/8 consequences, etc etc ... it's just a flat "Difficulty 4 roll against Presence".

He's tagged Aspects to up the ante, but it means this methodology is expensive either in FP or stress (sucking down Conviction-topped mental stress or Discipline-topped backlash).  Unlike Evocation, where uncontrolled power can be selectively spilled as Fallout or swallowed with Backlash, the Thaumaturgic nature means it all has to come back as Backlash or the whole thing is wasted.  

Compared to Evocation, it's slow, dangerous, and pretty weak.  He has an enchanted item that pops out a Weapon:6 Spirit attack vs. demons only (Banishing Mirror) and that's far more reliable for putting combat hurt down.  The Weapon:X values on evocations make them insane combat weapons with only minor min/maxing, so even leveraging my "eh, I'll allow it" to the hilt the guy with the Weapon:2 handgun is far more effective for standard attacks.  It's only by bypassing the usual "mook" monster physical tree and using the thaumaturgy to target their mental tree that the laborious methodology even seems attractive.

--fje

[Todjaeger]

Actually in the novels, Harry has made a use of Thaumaturgy during combat.

In Changes:

(click to show/hide)

Harry cast a major Thaumaturgy spell, tapping into a leyline around Chichen Itza to use earth magic and manipulate the gravity in an area around him to use again RC vampires and 'blood slaves'.  From memory, it took him about a minute to cast the spell, and Harry was able to spend the time doing so due to veils and illusions cast by Molly and Leansidhe to buy time and distract the vampires from their real targets.

With something like the above in mind, if other party members can provide 'cover' or run interference between a caster preparing a ritual and enemy combatants during the combat, then I'd likely allow the caster to perform a ritual in combat.  However, if the caster chooses to make an Athletics, Fists or Weapons roll to avoid being hit by something, or if they take Stress or a Consequence, or even just get successfully grappled, I would rule that they immediately lose control over the ritual and immediately have to deal with either backlash or fallout.

-Cheers

[crusher_bob]

I you have players feeling their characters are useless in combat, they are probably not doing maneuvers.  Remember that your character can try to maneuver with just about any skill, even during combat.  And then they can pass their free tag on to the characters actually bringing down the pain.  That's how even 'non-combat' characters can make a big difference in a fight.

[edit]
The spoilered spell need not have been thaumaturgy.  Harry could have just been taking a few exchanges to do maneuvers, which he then tagged to cast a much bigger than normal evocation spell instead.

[Todjaeger]

[edit]
The spoilered spell need not have been thaumaturgy.  Harry could have just been taking a few exchanges to do maneuvers, which he then tagged to cast a much bigger than normal evocation spell instead.

The issue with that is the book specifically mentioned he tapped into the leyline for additional power, per the RAW, Evocation power is determined by a caster's Conviction, plus appropriate specializations and foci for power, a character can't use Aspects to boost the power of their Evocation.  Tapping into a leyline for power is either making use of Thaumaturgy or Sponsored Magic: Place magic. 

-Cheers

[Becq]

I'm not sure why you would think that such power couldn't be drawn for Evocation.  It could have easily been a Declaration or Assessment resulting in an Aspect that he then tagged for a bonus to casting.

That said, I just re-read the relevant section of the book, and it's hard to believe that a spell that powerful was an Evocation, especially given that it was in an element he was weak in.  Then again, one could argue that "Earth Magic" implies Evocation, given that the divisions are different for Thaumaturgy.

Bottom line?  Could be either.  But it was big.