Author Topic: Using Thaumaturgy for Evocation-like effects in Combat  (Read 5544 times)

Offline Todjaeger

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Re: Using Thaumaturgy for Evocation-like effects in Combat
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2011, 02:39:28 AM »
I'm not sure why you would think that such power couldn't be drawn for Evocation.  It could have easily been a Declaration or Assessment resulting in an Aspect that he then tagged for a bonus to casting.

My reasoning per the RAW that Harry didn't use Evocation is from YS255 Gathering Power:

Quote
evocation is too quick and dirty to use other power sources the way a thaumaturgical spell can (page 267).

Since the novel specifically mentioned that he tapped into the ley line to draw power from it, and Evocation can't use other power sources apart from the caster's Conviction.  Also the description of casting an Evocation does have any entry about the use of Aspects or declarations, but the description for Thaumaturgy does specifically mention the use of either/both.  I grant that this is more an inferred intrepretation that the use of Aspects while gathering Power for an Evocation isn't permitted, but I do seem to recall coming across something which confirmed that Aspects can't be used to summon Power for an Evocation.

That said, I just re-read the relevant section of the book, and it's hard to believe that a spell that powerful was an Evocation, especially given that it was in an element he was weak in.  Then again, one could argue that "Earth Magic" implies Evocation, given that the divisions are different for Thaumaturgy.

Bottom line?  Could be either.  But it was big.

  I think somewhere in the description in the novel, it mentioned that is took Harry about a minute to cast the spell, which again suggests that it wasn't an Evocation since those castings are immediate, with possibly some effort of will/shifts to provide duration once the spell has been cast.  And I agree, that was big.  Sort of makes me wonder what would happen if Harry did the same thing at the home of a certain dirty Internal Affairs cop...

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Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Using Thaumaturgy for Evocation-like effects in Combat
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2011, 04:34:59 AM »
The issue with that is the book specifically mentioned he tapped into the leyline for additional power, per the RAW, Evocation power is determined by a caster's Conviction, plus appropriate specializations and foci for power, a character can't use Aspects to boost the power of their Evocation.  Tapping into a leyline for power is either making use of Thaumaturgy or Sponsored Magic: Place magic. 
Check YS:250 item 4 under "How to do it".  You can explicitly use aspects to add to your discipline roll when using Evocation. 

Mind, I think thaumaturgy makes more sense for the specific example used. 

That said, I'm not seeing anything which would prevent using other power sources in evocation.  It's been a while, but didn't Harry do exactly that in Storm Season?  May have to dig through the book again...
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Offline Becq

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Re: Using Thaumaturgy for Evocation-like effects in Combat
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2011, 05:17:39 AM »
You can invoke aspects to add +2 to any roll, so long as the table agrees that the aspect relates to that roll.  So, for example, I might use the 'Arcane Senses' from The Sight to use Lore for an Assessment.  I determine that there is the aspect "A River of Magic Runs Through It" on the scene.  Shortly thereafter, I encounter a bad guy I want to torch.  I tag the aforementioned aspect for a +2 to my Discipline roll when I cast the spell, which makes it hit harder.  I don't think you can boost the draw power part of Evocation, but adding to the roll helps with both control and attack roll, which translates in turn into damage.

The quote in Changes (and there's no spolier included here) is "A brief halt, true, something that lasted no more than a handful of seconds -- but it was time enough for me to reach down to touch the slow, terrible power of the ley line flowing beneath my feet".

By the way, I recall another instance that he did something like this.  I think it was against a Frog Demon or some such, and he drew power from a storm to blast the demon.  Storm Front seems likely to be the source for that one.

Offline Todjaeger

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Re: Using Thaumaturgy for Evocation-like effects in Combat
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2011, 07:55:11 AM »
By the way, I recall another instance that he did something like this.  I think it was against a Frog Demon or some such, and he drew power from a storm to blast the demon.  Storm Front seems likely to be the source for that one.

The frog (or was it a toad?) demon fried extra krispy with power from a thunderstorm was indeed from Storm Front.  Which does make YS267 sort of funny since the mention of drawing power from a storm to boost a spell is just with the Thaumaturgy section.  Granted, we know from Storm Front that can be done, but the novel also allowed it for Evocation too, albeit rather dangerous for the caster...

I'll have to go over the bits posted here about Aspect use for Evocation again.  When I originally was running things and creating characters, it had made sense to me that Aspects could be used to give an extra 'bump' in power if/when needed for Evocation.  As I said, something I came across which I can't remember where (of course...) then made me think it wasn't possible.  Perfectly happy to use Aspects for extra power during an Evocation again.  I did that during the playtest, much to the chagrin of a block of San Francisco in North Beach...

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Offline Becq

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Re: Using Thaumaturgy for Evocation-like effects in Combat
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2011, 09:13:14 AM »
I'll have to go over the bits posted here about Aspect use for Evocation again.  When I originally was running things and creating characters, it had made sense to me that Aspects could be used to give an extra 'bump' in power if/when needed for Evocation.  As I said, something I came across which I can't remember where (of course...) then made me think it wasn't possible.  Perfectly happy to use Aspects for extra power during an Evocation again.  I did that during the playtest, much to the chagrin of a block of San Francisco in North Beach...
Is there really a need to use Aspects to boost power for evocations?  Consider that adding two to the power of an attack spell ultimately increases the stress inflicted by two.  Increasing the control roll by two also ultimately bumps up stress by two.  However, an increase on the power side makes it more likely to fail the control roll, while an increase on the control roll decreases the likelihood of a failed control roll, and also decreases the chance of getting dodged or blocked.

Offline devonapple

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Re: Using Thaumaturgy for Evocation-like effects in Combat
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2011, 03:45:09 PM »
Is there really a need to use Aspects to boost power for evocations? 

To quote King Lear, "question not the need!" :D

Considering mundanes can use Maneuvers to place Aspects to help with their Attacks, I see no reason to restrict Wizards from doing the same. Plus, we have a textual example of a spell benefiting from an Aspect: that Grasping Branches spell.

The real question is *when* it's appropriate:
an increase on the power side makes it more likely to fail the control roll, while an increase on the control roll decreases the likelihood of a failed control roll, and also decreases the chance of getting dodged or blocked.

I think it balances out. Boosting Power stands a higher risk of spell failure. Boosting Control is equivalent to anyone else tagging an Aspect for an Attack.
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Offline InFerrumVeritas

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Re: Using Thaumaturgy for Evocation-like effects in Combat
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2011, 01:12:29 AM »
To quote King Lear, "question not the need!" :D

Considering mundanes can use Maneuvers to place Aspects to help with their Attacks, I see no reason to restrict Wizards from doing the same. Plus, we have a textual example of a spell benefiting from an Aspect: that Grasping Branches spell.

The real question is *when* it's appropriate:
I think it balances out. Boosting Power stands a higher risk of spell failure. Boosting Control is equivalent to anyone else tagging an Aspect for an Attack.

But he means is there a need to boost the Power (number of shifts) of a spell rather than just boosting the Control (I think). 

The answer?  Maybe for a block or maneuver.  Not for an attack (except possibly a spray attack). 

Would I allow it?  Sponsored magic allows it.  I don't think that allowing other casters to do it would devalue the sponsored magic.  I don't think it would come up terribly often.  So if it were thematically appropriate and well thought out, probably. 

Offline Todjaeger

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Re: Using Thaumaturgy for Evocation-like effects in Combat
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2011, 01:32:18 PM »
The quote in Changes is "
(click to show/hide)
".

Reading further on in the same chapter 42, about six paragraphs later there is the sentence,

Quote
(click to show/hide)

I knew I remembered reading a specific reference to the spell taking a minute to cast.  Still think it'd a good thing to direct at Rudolph's house, whether it is an Evocation or Thaumaturgy.
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Offline Becq

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Re: Using Thaumaturgy for Evocation-like effects in Combat
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2011, 01:02:46 AM »
I missed that latter bit of timing.  Yes, that make it sound very much like Thaumaturgy, though it still could have been an Evocation preceeded by a long string of maneuvers -- with accessing the Ley Line being the final maneuver.

Offline AlexFallad

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Re: Using Thaumaturgy for Evocation-like effects in Combat
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2011, 02:12:47 AM »
I missed that latter bit of timing.  Yes, that make it sound very much like Thaumaturgy, though it still could have been an Evocation preceeded by a long string of maneuvers -- with accessing the Ley Line being the final maneuver.


Strong point considering the length of an exchange is so ambiguous. Did anything specific happen in the intervening six paras that would support there were exchanges going on? (Guess who hasn't read Changes)

Offline Todjaeger

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Re: Using Thaumaturgy for Evocation-like effects in Combat
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2011, 04:37:56 AM »
Strong point considering the length of an exchange is so ambiguous. Did anything specific happen in the intervening six paras that would support there were exchanges going on? (Guess who hasn't read Changes)

Without spoiling it for you, Molly and Leansidhe had gotten together to cast an illusion to distract the bad guys.  Don't want to say too much more if you haven't read the book.

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Offline sinker

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Re: Using Thaumaturgy for Evocation-like effects in Combat
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2011, 05:33:26 AM »
Something to consider about Storm Front. A potential way to work that within RAW: Harry used the storm as an excuse to take the mild consequence of "Charred Fingertips" (or a more extreme consequence if you like), boosting the spell by two shifts. Not saying that's the way it went down, just a way it could work.

I'm not a fan of using aspects to boost power for one reason. Consider that if I boost my control roll I boost one thing: damage. If I'm capable of boosting my power then I can use those shifts for any number of things; expanding the spell to a zone or additional zones, increasing duration, etc.

As far as the original question I'm with Becq on this one. I'm all for using thaumaturgy in combat (sub-optimally) occasionally, but if you're doing it all the time then you need to consider reworking your character so that it works better for what you want.