Strength Modification

[BumblingBear]

Watch your tone, dude.  You've been warned about this before.

Noted.  Especially since it appears the aggrieved parties would prefer to tattle to mods rather than just say, "I was wrong".



Ok - I've officially retracted the claws.

For future reference though, anyone reading this who has a problem with my tone, all you have to do is PM me saying that you believe I was over the top or hurtful and I will /quickly/ edit my post.

[BumblingBear]

To make up for my lapse of judgment in how I presented my argument before, I am compiling a list of all the ways that an inhumanly/supernaturally/mythically strong character could take out a tank.

-Carrying C4
-Throwing large amounts of napalm on the tank
-Hitting a track with something at least weapon:4.  An I-beam would definitely do it.
-Carrying a 500 lb bomb to throw like a football.
-Throwing a car or two (the kinetic shock would still cause stress to those inside)
-Carrying an anti tank weapon like a crew served, tripod mounted cannon
-Wielding a huge sword (for giants) that is like a warden's sword and can increase in weapons rating.  A weapon: 6 or weapon: 7 would prabably penetrate the armor.
-Grappling and actually ripping it apart.  I would imagine that a character who is strong enough to rip a vault door apart could damage a tank too.

[ways and means]

To make up for my lapse of judgment in how I presented my argument before, I am compiling a list of all the ways that an inhumanly/supernaturally/mythically strong character could take out a tank.

-Carrying C4
-Throwing large amounts of napalm on the tank
-Hitting a track with something at least weapon:4.  An I-beam would definitely do it.
-Carrying a 500 lb bomb to throw like a football.
-Throwing a car or two (the kinetic shock would still cause stress to those inside)
-Carrying an anti tank weapon like a crew served, tripod mounted cannon
-Wielding a huge sword (for giants) that is like a warden's sword and can increase in weapons rating.  A weapon: 6 or weapon: 7 would prabably penetrate the armor.
-Grappling and actually ripping it apart.  I would imagine that a character who is strong enough to rip a vault door apart could damage a tank too.

I am going to add throwing the tank at another tank and punching the tank in the canon.

[Mickey Finn]

Actually, BB, it was reported by someone who hasn't even posted in this thread. Just a reader who noticed something out of whack. I know that may seem uncool to you since the person you were sniping at didn't do it, but look at another way....the people in the room where there's an argument can feel more AUUUUGH than the people in the argument.

Unfortunately....
Strike two for continuing to snipe after being told to stop.



BB, for future reference, just to be clear...you stating your credentials is completely kosher. It's good to know that sort of stuff. I don't want that to get confused with the tone issue...the tone was mild compared to many places on the net, it's just not allowed here.

[Belial666]

A 150 cm arrow that's 1 cm thick and is made of tungsten weighs about 5 pounds. Tungsten terminal velocity (for a man-shaped piece, not a streamlined arrow) is about 1350 mph. So tungsten arrow, given enough energy, could travel well over half a mile per second. Such an arrow begins to look suspiciously like an APFSDS projectile.


That said, you'd need bows of special materials to achieve that. It is rather more expedient to carry actual antitank weaponry around.

[Becq]

So, getting back to the original question, here's my response:

When contemplating whether or not a particular skill roll should qualify as being modified by Might and therefore get a bonus due to Strength powers, ask yourself the reverse question, first.  That is, should a person with a low Might get a penalty when making the exact same roll?  If so, then you probably have a good argument for gaining the bonus.  But just keep in mind that "modify" works both ways, so if a penalty for low Might doesn't make sense, then a bonus for high Might (or Inhuman or greater Strength) probably doesn't either.

[ways and means]

So, getting back to the original question, here's my response:

When contemplating whether or not a particular skill roll should qualify as being modified by Might and therefore get a bonus due to Strength powers, ask yourself the reverse question, first.  That is, should a person with a low Might get a penalty when making the exact same roll?  If so, then you probably have a good argument for gaining the bonus.  But just keep in mind that "modify" works both ways, so if a penalty for low Might doesn't make sense, then a bonus for high Might (or Inhuman or greater Strength) probably doesn't either.

I quite like this way at looking at things, so a person throwing a car by this logic would gain an advantage but one with a spear wouldn't (as low might makes the first one impossible and it definatly would be easier to throw something as big as a car acuratly with more strength.

[BumblingBear]

Actually, BB, it was reported by someone who hasn't even posted in this thread. Just a reader who noticed something out of whack. I know that may seem uncool to you since the person you were sniping at didn't do it, but look at another way....the people in the room where there's an argument can feel more AUUUUGH than the people in the argument.

Unfortunately....
Strike two for continuing to snipe after being told to stop.



BB, for future reference, just to be clear...you stating your credentials is completely kosher. It's good to know that sort of stuff. I don't want that to get confused with the tone issue...the tone was mild compared to many places on the net, it's just not allowed here.

Ok Mickey Finn - apologies as always.

Although - it's been a year since I had to be nudged by a mod so that has to count for something, right?

I think I (mistakenly) took offense by Priscellie calling me, "dude" in that context.  In my neck of that woods, that kind of terminology is highly insulting and demeaning.

I am sure that I misunderstood.

This site has the most fair modding of any other forum I've ever posted on.

Apologies to all the posters who witnessed this temporary lapse in decorum.

I've been temporarily banned from the forum that I usually let loose my inner snark-demon, so I have a lot of pent up angst right now.

I didn't name myself "Bumbling" for nothing.

[Mickey Finn]

I'll try to remember the Dude thing, because I almost did it too...Priscilla and I are originally from the same town.*

Very much appreciative of you as a person, BB. Thanks for recognizing we "mod indiscriminatly."




*Didn't know each other until Jim, though.

[InFerrumVeritas]

Yeah, in other parts of the US, "dude" is a friendly term. 

Anyway, when it comes to letting Strength Powers modify an effect, I typically ask if being strong would actually help (and also use the "would being weak make it worse" benchmark).  Another general rule of thumb is that I don't let it apply to attacks or defense (unless you're defending something like Increased Gravity) for the sake of balance.  In other situations like needing to jump something (stronger would modify Athletics), intimidation (he can break a man's spine with one hand so we should listen), and breaking into homes (he can just push the door open or pull the lock off) I'd allow it if the player could justify a way to do so.

[Priscellie]

Yeah, apologies for the "dude" thing.  I've always heard it used in friendly contexts or as an interjection.  I wasn't aware there were regions of the country where it had a demeaning implication.

[AlexFallad]

So, getting back to the original question, here's my response:

When contemplating whether or not a particular skill roll should qualify as being modified by Might and therefore get a bonus due to Strength powers, ask yourself the reverse question, first.  That is, should a person with a low Might get a penalty when making the exact same roll?  If so, then you probably have a good argument for gaining the bonus.  But just keep in mind that "modify" works both ways, so if a penalty for low Might doesn't make sense, then a bonus for high Might (or Inhuman or greater Strength) probably doesn't either.

Hence the awesome group story-telling process of Fate system.  I recently set up a villain with Inhuman Strength and decided in combat he would fight with Fists specifically to bring his Might to advantage...just punishing blows and kicks and stomps and haymakers and...well, you get the idea.  But then I said to myself, "Self, why wouldn't this character, or any character able to modify an attack with Might, ALWAYS attack like this.  Twould get boring."  And I guess it might, but still makes sense how a Troll would fight as opposed to Jet Li or Mike Tyson.  Maybe a counter is that a clever opponent would have easier Declarations or Manuevers against an attacker fighting like that.

[wyvern]

Answer: because sometimes you're aiming to trip someone (maneuver) and can't bring that extra strength to bear, or you're fighting a mortal and don't want to just pancake them, or you just don't want quite as much risk of breaking your weapon...  And sometimes you're fighting a martial arts master who makes a "Water Stance" fists maneuver, invokes it for effect, and suddenly your bonus from might is reducing your attack rolls instead of increasing them...

A lot of the time, yeah, if you've got might higher than fists/weapons (either through strength powers or just plain skill), you'll want to attack in a way that lets you get some use out of all that extra power.  And sometimes doing that will backfire.  If there's no chance of it ever backfiring, though - then that is, indeed, boring, and shouldn't be done.

[Todjaeger]

A 150 cm arrow that's 1 cm thick and is made of tungsten weighs about 5 pounds. Tungsten terminal velocity (for a man-shaped piece, not a streamlined arrow) is about 1350 mph. So tungsten arrow, given enough energy, could travel well over half a mile per second. Such an arrow begins to look suspiciously like an APFSDS projectile.

I do not wish to get into a snark-fest here, but I feel this does need to be corrected.  Terminal velocity is a physics/fluid dynamics term, which in lay terms is when a falling object has reached maximum velocity because the downward force (gravity and the upward force (drag) are equal, resulting in no additional acceleration on the falling object.

The material of the falling object has nothing to do with it.  What can impact the terminal velocity of an object is its shape and size.  A dense, streamlined material like a 1 oz. lead deer slug will typically have a significantly higher terminal velocity and a cardboard box which also has a weight of 1 oz. simply because the surface area of the cardboard box relative to the mass of the box is much greater.

As an aside, the top speed of many falling objects close to the surface of the Earth is ~200mph.  The closer something gets to the surface, the greater the density of the air which the object is falling through, which results in greater drag and more energy is required to displace dense air vs. 'thin' air.  This is also one of the reasons why parachutes are less effective if/when deployed at greater altitudes, and why some of the speed for very high terminal velocities are recorded at high altitudes (100,000+ ft).

-Cheers

[Becq]

The material of the falling object has nothing to do with it.  What can impact the terminal velocity of an object is its shape and size.  A dense, streamlined material like a 1 oz. lead deer slug will typically have a significantly higher terminal velocity and a cardboard box which also has a weight of 1 oz. simply because the surface area of the cardboard box relative to the mass of the box is much greater.

I agree with all of this except the first sentence.  All other things being equal, the material that is denser will fall faster (same drag, greater mass and therefore gravitational force, therefore greater terminal velocity).  In addition, how rough the surface of the object is will affect drag.

As an example, consider a 2-inch sphere made of balsa wood, and a 2-inch sphere made of lead.  Same size, same shape, but the lead sphere will not only have a greater gravitational force acting on it, but also a bit less drag, despite having the same shape.  Material does matter.  It's just not the only factor.