Debt, Gifts, and Offspring

[zerogain]

We've had an interesting turn in my game. One player has a Pure Mortal character, and in the midst of the most recent story the person who was supposed to be her father appears, and the wizard determines that he is not as he seems. There's a tussle and the illusion is stripped away, and viola there is a faerie lord standing there in place of the Pure Mortal's father.

My intent was that he was an impostor, but the player has chosen that this person really is her character's father. As she has yet to officially accept that she is a Changeling she is still using the Pure Mortal template (and benefit).

Now that that's been done, I realize that he has given her a great many gifts over the years. If you think about it, almost half her life is a gift from him.

EDIT: I do not mean conception. Her trouble has always been revolving around Daddy's interference.  She's a cop, he's deputy chief of police. Again, he wasn't originally a fae,  so this may become overcomplicated. Please leave those questions to my group. Regardless he has always been a shameless gift giver, and hell, for the evening in question she accepted a dress and tickets to the event the party needed access to.

So here's the question, how do debts and gifts with the fae work if the recipient is (a) unaware of the gift giver's true nature, and (b) the gift giver's direct offspring.

Secondary question, how does the debt actually work?

[Bruce Coulson]

He could well be a Pure Mortal, having unconsciously chosen mortality some time ago.

In legend, not knowing the true nature of the gift giver does not exempt the recipient from owing a debt.  And it would make sense for Fae to bind their offspring (even mortal) with debts of obligation, so that they can have greater influence in the mortal world.

Being a direct offspring simply makes it easier for the Fae to give such gifts.

[UmbraLux]

Secondary question, how does the debt actually work?

I'd use it as an aspect.  In the case of most fae, it's probably tied to their high concept...making compels against the aspect fairly 'serious'. 

[devonapple]

If you think about it, almost half her life is a gift from him.

I wouldn't apply *that* logic to the situation. Saddling a character with a predetermined genetic debt of obligation to an unknown parent seems fishy.

What isn't clear is *how* this Fey "has given her a great many gifts over the years."

[sinker]

What isn't clear is *how* this Fey "has given her a great many gifts over the years."

I would assume that he's referring to the idea that this person likely acted as her father for many years, giving freely as a father might. That would indeed incur a great deal of debt.

[Becq]

My viewpoint on how the concept of Fae gifts/debt/bargains applies to this situation goes something like this:

1) Any time someone accepts a gift from a Fae, they are granting the Fae a measure of power over them.  The impression I get is that by default, Fae have very little power over mortals; that is, their powers are weakened when used against them.  I see this as a form of threshold, which is hard for Fae to get past until the mortal 'invites them in' by accepting a gift.

2) That aside, the gifts themselves do not incur any formal debt.  Rather, debt results from favors accepted or bargains agreed to.  It need not be obvious that you are negotiating with a Fae or even that you are agreeing to a bargain.  For example, say you are watching a ball game with Jimmy the disguised Fae.  The doorbell rings, and it's the pizza guy.  Jimmy tells you to relax; he'll take care of the bill and you can owe him one.  If you agree, then you now own a Fae a Favor, whether you realize it or not.

3) Even so, (pure) mortals are not as bound by debts as supernatural types are.  For example, Dresden was bound because he swore to repay on his Power.  If he defaulted, he'd then actually lose some portion of his magical power.  A Fae literally *can't* default, because to do so would be against their inherent nature.  When a pure mortal defaults, then I think at worse the favor basically counts as a gift, and the mortal is in the situation describe in #1.  Which may not be a good thing, of course, but it's not quite so bad as the Dresden example.

Back to the OP's scenario.  First of all, I don't think that the very conception would count as anything.  After all, at worst the character *is* the gift, since there was nobody to recieve the gift when it was given.  Of course, since then there are likely a great number of times that the father slipped in hidden 'bargains'.  But he really doesn't have much of a hold on her, since she offered no collateral, as it were.  She has opened herself to his power, but nothing more.  Either that, of she could take on an aspect (or even a Trouble) to reflect her feeling of indebtedness.

The situation changes if she begins to embrace her Changeling side.  At that point, her nature would begin to change, and any bargains made from then on would carry more strength.  Teaching her powers might count as bargains, etc.

[SunlessNick]

Also, a number of the things he's given over the years could be interpreted as his fulfilling an obligation he took on when he assumed the role of father.  Or alternatively, since he's given those gifts as the character's father, is he implicitly bound only to seek repayments that a father might reasonably ask of a daughter, rather than a faerie of an indebted mortal?

[InFerrumVeritas]

Also, a number of the things he's given over the years could be interpreted as his fulfilling an obligation he took on when he assumed the role of father.  Or alternatively, since he's given those gifts as the character's father, is he implicitly bound only to seek repayments that a father might reasonably ask of a daughter, rather than a faerie of an indebted mortal?

Yes.  It's like how Harry doesn't necessarily have to repay Lea for some of the stuff she does for him only for specific favors he asks of her in an implicit bargain.

[Richard_Chilton]

Yes.  It's like how Harry doesn't necessarily have to repay Lea for some of the stuff she does for him only for specific favors he asks of her in an implicit bargain.

But that's because his mother bargained with her to be his god-mother.

Richard

[Tedronai]

Many of the favours Lea grants to Dresden are 'pre-payed' by his mother.  Others are simply undertaken without his input, or even without his knowledge because doing so is in Lea's interests. (healing in the graveyard, a tunnel through the smoke, guarding the nevernever)

[InFerrumVeritas]

But that's because his mother bargained with her to be his god-mother.

Richard

Right, but the favors done as god-mother are not paid for by Harry.  His mom bargained for one favor (just a big one).  The individual favors and obligations that come from this are not treated individually.

Same with a fairy father.

[sinker]

Potentially the same with a fairy father.

Something to consider is that there are stories of fairies abducting children to lovingly raise them as their own. Perhaps her father simply felt the urge to raise a child.

[LokiTM]

I really can't see tricking someone in to a debt. You find a gold coin in your bed. You keep it. Ha ha! You owe some fae a big debt!

Seems to me there has to be some form of agreement there, even if somewhat implicit.

[Obsid]

Being her father already puts him in a position of power over her. Raising her also puts him in a position of power over her. The gifts (Holiday presents, regular goods, life necessities) are a part of raisin her.

This position of power is not a debt per se. Fairies operate under the old way. A man is a lord of his own castle, his wife is his servant, and his children are his slaves. The specifics vary, but the idea that children are naturally subservient to their parents is pretty consistent. It's a status much like patron-client or lord-vassal. The power he has over her would be similar to what a Mab has over Lea, (or Harry for that matter) only significantly scaled down. He would not own her. She would not have explicit obligations to him. But she would have implicit subservience (unless she disowns him, or he acknowledges her independence).

That said, we are talking about a Fae here. He's had a lot of opportunities to make bargains with her, even if she didn't understand what they were. For example, instead of giving her an allowance, he could lend her money. He could give her candies, toys, and what have you saying things like, "trade you," and if she asks what he gets back he could say vague things like "I'll decide later." It would seem more playful than anything else to a child, after all. And if on any instance she said something like, "I'd do anything for..." or "I'd trade my life for..." he could simply give her whatever it is, and say, "deal."

[sinker]

Something occurred to me along the same lines I was saying earlier. What if he's just trying to raise his progeny the best he can? Outside of the Nevernever he isn't the all powerful being he was. Even if he has greater glamors he can't create something lasting. I suppose it's relatively easy to get the basics, Food and shelter and such, through basic trickery (I.E. Steal it while veiled, pay for it with "money" or make bargains with mortals), but what about the big things? When she wants a car or similar, something expensive and lasting. I imagine it's suspicious to simply drop $25,000 cash for a car these days, especially if it went missing later, and you couldn't just steal it because that might have repercussions later. So the interesting question is, did daddy Fae get a day job?