Healing with enchanted items?

[citadel97501]

Hello all,

I am just checking to see if I missed something?  The way I read the rules on Biomancy, you only need a number of shifts equal to the severity of the Consequence to remove it, and with enchanted items they can perform any action that Thaumaturgy can do?

So I made a concept character who had power 10 enchanted items and 4 enchanted item slots(only costs me 5 refresh), and then divided up the power slots and got the following?  Is this RAW correct (even though you should be smacked for bringing this to a table?)

Name:                               Effect                                Power        Uses
-Minor Healing Stone:          Heals a Minor Consequence 2               9
-Medium Healing Stone:       Heals a Moderate               4               7
-Severe Healing Stone:        Heals a Severe                   6               5
-Armor Enchantment:          Block 10, or Armor 5           10             1

[Tsunami]

Healing is very very tricky in the DFRPG.

There are now 3 on screen examples of healing in the source material

1. Lea healing Harry's Headwound
2. Elaine using her Reiki Healing Spell
3.

(click to show/hide)

Mab healing Harry's broken Back

Changes Spoiler

1. and 3. are more along the line of Plot device power.

2. is an example of what a Player-Wizard can expect to be able to accomplish.

Elaine's Reiki Healing spell is statted out in YS:300.

And it is not a straight up heal. It allows for a moderate consequence to heal like a mild one.
I think it should be used as a guideline.

Mild consequences can be removed... though it doesn't really make sense, since mild go away quickly on their own.
Moderates can heal like Milds for a complexity of 8 (4 base +4 for the consequence.)

Reducing a Severe to heal like a Moderate would take at least 10 shifts.


Also, having a thaumaturgy effect in an enchanted item does not mean that you can use it at the speed of evocation.
I'd still require a certain amount of time for it to work, you just don't need to bother with preparing and other hindrances.

So: No mid Combat Healing. That is what Recovery powers are for.

I would price healing spells like this:

Remove a Mild Consequence: 6 shifts (doesn't change much, since it takes a scene to do the ritual to heal, and Milds only last a scene in any case... so generally a useless exercise)

Recover a moderate like a Mild: 8-10 shifts

Recover a Severe like a Moderate: 14-16 shifts ( For this I'd require the caster to have some form of medical knowledge to justify him using magic in this way. Otherwise you'd need to have some form of sponsored magic to offset the lack of knowledge)

Each Consequence can only be treated once. So no instant heals of Severe consequences.

Edit: This post is kind of a disconnected jumble of thoughts... i hope you can follow it *g*

[citadel97501]

OK, thank you. 

Personal note, wear body armor and avoid all injuries as you need to go see a doctor to heal a stubbed toe. . .

[crusher_bob]

Yes, normal human characters can quickly be mauled.

Since you are new to the system, here's some things to consider:

The concession mechanics are there to help keep your squishy character from being killed.  If you conceed, you should always wake up later tied to a chair, or in a pit full of cobras, or buried alive, or something; your concessions should never end with, "at least you were buried in secret, so your grave won't be desecrated."

Your consequences don't technically limit what you can do.  So if your leg is broken, and you get to the doctor and get it put into a cast, it doesn't really interfere with your actions unless the consequence is compelled, and you get FATE points for that.

[Belial666]

Also, having a thaumaturgy effect in an enchanted item does not mean that you can use it at the speed of evocation.

This is wrong. If you have a spell on an item (and this inlcudes thaumaturgy effects) you can activate it with a single action. In fact, defensive items can be activated without an action at all. So, a power 8 item could remove a mild consequence. If it is defensive, it could even remove it as soon as you take it by expending a charge.



As for concessions, here's the thing; it you conceed and the concession is accepted then you don't die. But a black court vampire that's hungry is free to ignore your concession and drink your blood. (especially since Blood Drinker may compel it to drink your blood even in cases it might accept a concession)

[Tsunami]

Also, having a thaumaturgy effect in an enchanted item does not mean that you can use it at the speed of evocation.
This is wrong. If you have a spell on an item (and this inlcudes thaumaturgy effects) you can activate it with a single action. In fact, defensive items can be activated without an action at all. So, a power 8 item could remove a mild consequence. If it is defensive, it could even remove it as soon as you take it by expending a charge.

Yes, you can activate it easily and sometimes even without an action, but nowhere does it say that the effect is necessarily an immediate one.
And for Healing Spells it just fits the world better if they are not immediate. But like so often in this system it comes down to personal preference and narration.

The Important part there is the fact that mid combat removal of moderate or severe consequences is not possible. And that is always the case, whether you allow instant thaumaturgy effects or not.

[toturi]

The Important part there is the fact that mid combat removal of moderate or severe consequences is not possible. And that is always the case, whether you allow instant thaumaturgy effects or not.

Emphasis mine. I am not sure if I missed something: is there any rule that states mid combat removal of moderate or severe consequences is not possible? Recovery Powers allow for mid combat removal of mild consequences, but I do not think that it would naturally follow that moderate or severe consequences cannot be removed mid combat via alternative means.

[Tsunami]

Emphasis mine. I am not sure if I missed something: is there any rule that states mid combat removal of moderate or severe consequences is not possible? Recovery Powers allow for mid combat removal of mild consequences, but I do not think that it would naturally follow that moderate or severe consequences cannot be removed mid combat via alternative means.

I think it's a fact. But feel free to call it an idea instead.

No specific specific rule, but i think the recovery powers, even the high level ones, limit shrug-offs to mild consequences for a reason.
Getting rid of Moderate or Severe consequences mid conflict would go against their spirit imho.

[Wolfwood2]

As for concessions, here's the thing; it you conceed and the concession is accepted then you don't die. But a black court vampire that's hungry is free to ignore your concession and drink your blood. (especially since Blood Drinker may compel it to drink your blood even in cases it might accept a concession)

I don't consider concessions to be an in-character negotiation.  When you offer a concession, it's not the black court vampire who accepts it or rejects it, it's the player who is running the vampire.  Consequently the decision can't be compeled any more than you could compel a player to change a character's aspect or something similiar.  Only characters can be compeled, not players.

[Silverblaze]

Healing is very very tricky in the DFRPG.

There are now 3 on screen examples of healing in the source material

1. Lea healing Harry's Headwound
2. Elaine using her Reiki Healing Spell
3.

(click to show/hide)

Mab healing Harry's broken Back

Changes Spoiler

1. and 3. are more along the line of Plot device power.

2. is an example of what a Player-Wizard can expect to be able to accomplish.

Elaine's Reiki Healing spell is statted out in YS:300.

And it is not a straight up heal. It allows for a moderate consequence to heal like a mild one.
I think it should be used as a guideline.

Mild consequences can be removed... though it doesn't really make sense, since mild go away quickly on their own.
Moderates can heal like Milds for a complexity of 8 (4 base +4 for the consequence.)

Reducing a Severe to heal like a Moderate would take at least 10 shifts.


Also, having a thaumaturgy effect in an enchanted item does not mean that you can use it at the speed of evocation.
I'd still require a certain amount of time for it to work, you just don't need to bother with preparing and other hindrances.

So: No mid Combat Healing. That is what Recovery powers are for.

I would price healing spells like this:

Remove a Mild Consequence: 6 shifts (doesn't change much, since it takes a scene to do the ritual to heal, and Milds only last a scene in any case... so generally a useless exercise)

Recover a moderate like a Mild: 8-10 shifts

Recover a Severe like a Moderate: 14-16 shifts ( For this I'd require the caster to have some form of medical knowledge to justify him using magic in this way. Otherwise you'd need to have some form of sponsored magic to offset the lack of knowledge)

Each Consequence can only be treated once. So no instant heals of Severe consequences.

Edit: This post is kind of a disconnected jumble of thoughts... i hope you can follow it *g*

No mid combat healing?:

  What about thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation?  If someone can acquire enough shifts could they not duplicate recovery powers to remove a mild?  if so could a sponsored spell not first cause a moderate to heal like a mild or use similar stronger magic to greater effect then on the following round remove a mild?...or something that heals like a mild?  I think the ramifications could be overpowered, but is it possible in RAW?

[Papa Gruff]

No mid combat healing?:

  What about thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation?  If someone can acquire enough shifts could they not duplicate recovery powers to remove a mild?  if so could a sponsored spell not first cause a moderate to heal like a mild or use similar stronger magic to greater effect then on the following round remove a mild?...or something that heals like a mild?  I think the ramifications could be overpowered, but is it possible in RAW?

I think that sponsored magic in fact might be able to reduce the healing time or get rid of a mild through means of thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation. As always it'd depend on the sponsor. To me it makes perfect sense that soul fire could do it but not very much else. Even summer magic seems not to qualify ... can't imagine wild growth is something you want to happen in your body *g* .

It's still seams a big IF considering that sole fire is hard to come by.

[Tsunami]

I think that sponsored magic in fact might be able to reduce the healing time or get rid of a mild through means of thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation. As always it'd depend on the sponsor. To me it makes perfect sense that soul fire could do it but not very much else. Even summer magic seems not to qualify ... can't imagine wild growth is something you want to happen in your body *g* .

It's still seams a big IF considering that sole fire is hard to come by.

Actually, Summer magic is one of the sponsored magics that can do potent healing effects. It's specifically mentioned in

YS:288 Under "What you can do with it"

Sometimes the power
source is instead more potent (or at least faster)
when directed against certain types of problems,
such  as  Summer’s  ability  to  do  more  potent
healing effects (the sponsor takes care of all that
pesky biological know-how)

and YS:290 Seelie Magic Benefits

This  includes
the ability to produce effects along the lines of
biomancy (page¤284) with less of a requirement
for  biological  expertise  in  the  spellcaster—the
powers of Summer already understand biology
pretty well and will do the heavy lifting for the
caster


Anyway, regarding the possibility of accelerated healing through spells.
The RAW are inconsistent on healing in general.

On the one hand the basic biomancy rules explicitly state that recovery time can NOT be shortened,

YS:284
The  main  advantage  of  healing  magic  in
the  game  is  in  providing  justification  to  begin
the  recovery  process  (page¤ 220)  without  any
other  effort.  Use  the  shift  value  of  the  conse-
quence  (which  you  can  stack  together  for
multiple consequences) as the spell complexity.
Remember, the recovery time can’t be shortened
with these kinds of magics—the target still has
to go through the healing naturally.

On the Other hand the Reiki Healing spell in YS does exactly that, shorten recovery time.


Now concerning the issue of mid conflict healing:

Take a look at Mythic Recovery.
This is a -6 refresh power dedicated to healing yourself. It heals severe consequences in like... no time at all.
However, it does not do so during a conflict.
It allows for instant recovery from several mild consequences, but anything above that is always present until at least the end of the scene in which it was inflicted.
If a quite costly dedicated healing ability can not heal anything worse than a Mild Consequence during conflict, i think it's quite a stretch to allow the more general magical ability to do so.

Especially that given the basic Biomancy rules, healing spells that shorten recovery time at all are a stretch in the first place.


I think healing magic that reduces recovery time by one level is already quite potent. And according to the source material it is a kind of magic that is rare and highly difficult.
Therefore i think magical healing should not occur mid conflict, except through the dedicated recovery powers.
And it should be limited to one use per consequence, reducing recovery time by one level at most.

So that's my take on this.
I think it fits the spirit of the rules as well as the source material quite nicely.
However the RAW are inconsistent, so anyone feel free to disagree  

[BumblingBear]

I am against PC created healing items/potions for a lot of reasons.

I introduce them as plot devices once in a while but that is all.

[Papa Gruff]

Actually, Summer magic is one of the sponsored magics that can do potent healing effects. It's specifically mentioned in

I know that my dear friend. Perhaps I made it not absolutely clear, perhaps you like correcting me to much ... ;o)

... as you may have read my post was primarily concerned with thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation. As winter magic can only do entropic things through thaumaturgy at evocation speeds i drew the conclusion that summer magic should be equally devastating when used in such a way. That makes quite a lot of sense to me, since evocation speed magic (that is not used by plot devices) tends to be on the destructive side of things.

I was not in any way trying to state that summer magic can't heal. That would be an insane statement. I apologize if it came through like this.

[Tsunami]

I know that my dear friend. Perhaps I made it not absolutely clear, perhaps you like correcting me to much ... ;o)

... as you may have read my post was primarily concerned with thaumaturgy at the speed of evocation. As winter magic can only do entropic things through thaumaturgy at evocation speeds i drew the conclusion that summer magic should be equally devastating when used in such a way. That makes quite a lot of sense to me, since evocation speed magic (that is not used by plot devices) tends to be on the destructive side of things.

I was not in any way trying to state that summer magic can't heal. That would be an insane statement. I apologize if it came through like this.

Ah, I misunderstood. Totally agree then.