Does Sleep Magic Break Any Laws of Magic?

[devonapple]

Exactly. Messing with dreams is a mental effect, but the basic effort to make someone want to lay down and take a nap is physical stress.

If someone wants to resist a physical sleep attack with some sort of characteristic wariness/wakefulness, then that would be either invoking an Aspect for a defense bonus, or rolling for a Navel-Gazing Maneuver to create a comparable Aspect to tag.

[ways and means]

You can't forget that DFRP uses mental stress for fatigue (well at least whilst casting) a sleep spell could easily be seen as a fatigue spell.

[Wolfwood2]

I would say that a Sleep spell is usually Physical stress, unless circumstances dictate otherwise.  This is from a gameplay perspective as much as anything.

I would also negate the advantage of it being 'safe' to use on humans with the disadvantage that you can pretty easily use Discipline or Endurance to defend against it rather than Athletics.  Basically, you get a spell that is Lawbreaker-safe for humans, but it's way easy to justify multiple defensive skills against it.  This explains why Wardens aren't more free with the Sleep spells in the novels.  It's great if you need to take out a night security guard without hurting him, but a bad choice agianst enemy spellcasters and their high Disiplines.

[Haru]

You can't forget that DFRP uses mental stress for fatigue (well at least whilst casting) a sleep spell could easily be seen as a fatigue spell.

That is, because it is a mental exercise. If you were to run a few miles, I am pretty sure that would be physical stress.

I know that phenomenon when in a high studying phase. I would learn all day and be tired as hell after that. But I didn't do anything physical, and I would be able to do a whole lot more, as long as it didn't involve thinking. And I know this the other way, too, though being physically exhausted will have more of an impact on your mental capacities than the other way around.

So if you are trying to tire someone, you could use this to your advantage (or it could be used to your disadvantage). A huge guy, made mostly of muscle might not be able to withstand much mental stress and could be worn down like that. On the other hand, he is probably not using much of his brain when he is punching you in the face, so he might be "immun" to that kind of sleep spell (which might be reflected in an aspect like "all muscle, no brain" or even a stunt).

[ways and means]

I would personally give people with mythic recovery powers immunity to physical sleep spells as they are imune to exhaustion and never need to sleep. Not so sure about the mental sleep spells though.

[Haru]

I would personally give people with mythic recovery powers immunity to physical sleep spells as they are imune to exhaustion and never need to sleep. Not so sure about the mental sleep spells though.

Well they don't need to sleep, but I am sure they still can sleep. WCV and RCV don't need to feed on normal food, but they still do on occasion. They should have an advantage resisting a spell or potion like that (which is reflected in their power anyway), and the sleep might not be as deep/long as it would be on a regular person. At the latest, when the consequences are gone, that brought them down.

[MijRai]

Well they don't need to sleep, but I am sure they still can sleep. WCV and RCV don't need to feed on normal food, but they still do on occasion. They should have an advantage resisting a spell or potion like that (which is reflected in their power anyway), and the sleep might not be as deep/long as it would be on a regular person. At the latest, when the consequences are gone, that brought them down.

Uh, White Court Vampires probably still need to eat real food. They do have the human body and all.

You have a point that just because they (they being the being with Mythic Recovery) never need to sleep, it doesn't mean they can't. I would say that because they never need to, it would be quite hard to force them to, via any means. They may feel an urge to sleep due to the spell, but they have the innate ability to just ignore it forever. In fact, one of the parts of Recovery is that you never need to roll for fatigue, so physical causes of sleep are pretty much moot. Also, with Recovery like that, trying to drug them would be pretty futile in my opinion as well, since they would process the sedatives or whatever you used too quickly for them to have any real effect. So no tricky mundane answer either.

[Taran]

I would personally give people with mythic recovery powers immunity to physical sleep spells as they are imune to exhaustion and never need to sleep. Not so sure about the mental sleep spells though.

I don't see there being a problem with a mental and physical version.  If a thing has Mythic Toughness, and you're sure it isn't mortal, use the mental version.

[BumblingBear]

If you just want someone/thing to fall asleep for a round or two to slit their throat, you would probably only need to do a maneuver and then tag it for effect.

I just have a really hard time imagining that putting things to sleep is very hard for a warden ... and /most/ wardens are not 40+ refresh powerhouses like the Sr. Council.

[zerogain]

If you just want someone/thing to fall asleep for a round or two to slit their throat, you would probably only need to do a maneuver and then tag it for effect.

I'm assuming that you'd then, what, make an attack with their Defense score at +0 and hope you get enough physical consequences?

[BumblingBear]

I'm assuming that you'd then, what, make an attack with their Defense score at +0 and hope you get enough physical consequences?

If someone is unconscious they are helpless.

I would let a PC kill someone in that state without a roll.

It's not too OP either because the compel for effect can be resisted for a fate point by the NPC, and it can be rolled against (the maneuver) before the PC has another turn. 

[zerogain]

It's not too OP either because the compel for effect can be resisted for a fate point by the NPC, and it can be rolled against (the maneuver) before the PC has another turn. 

Unless folks are acting in sequence, as all good, abusive players do. Unless it's saved for that moment when the opponent has no more fate points to resist the compel with. ;-)

Sorry, I can't see allowing someone a Taken Out result for free.

[BumblingBear]

Unless folks are acting in sequence, as all good, abusive players do. Unless it's saved for that moment when the opponent has no more fate points to resist the compel with. ;-)

Sorry, I can't see allowing someone a Taken Out result for free.

Not taken out.  Dead.

If they wanted to tie the unconscious person up or something, they'd have to roll an appropriate skill for it to place an aspect.

[ways and means]

That seems awefully save or die to me, if you wanted to do that with an unconsious enemy I would consider unconsious to mean taken out and require you to do stress until all the opponents concequences are gone first.

[InFerrumVeritas]

That seems awefully save or die to me, if you wanted to do that with an unconsious enemy I would consider unconsious to mean taken out and require you to do stress until all the opponents concequences are gone first.

I don't think you should be able to maneuver to make an enemy helpless or unconscious.  That seems like Taken Out to me.  If they are taken out, then I'd say you could kill them without a roll.