Author Topic: True Believer in Evil  (Read 6528 times)

Offline ways and means

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Re: True Believer in Evil
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2011, 04:14:30 AM »
I read up on Sanya and so I should apologise to everyone, if Sanya has true faith powers then in the DF faith has nothing to do with true faith, I am going to rename them in my book Holy Powers or God Powers which seems to fit the mold better.
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Even forever must come to an end....
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Offline Tedronai

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Re: True Believer in Evil
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2011, 06:24:03 AM »
The theological at work in the DV seems a bit two dimensional at times - or maybe we just don't know enough about it.  It could evolve the way the Wardens went from the Bogymen to "people doing the job that needs doing" as the series progressed.  But until things change what we have to work are people like Micheal.  There have been many other 'gods' talked about, but none of their followers seem to have gotten any Faith based powers.

How many explicit followers of other gods have we seen in the series (to a meaningful extent that we would even be aware of whether they had the mechanical representations in question)?
Off the top of my head, I can think of...one.
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Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: True Believer in Evil
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2011, 06:43:32 AM »
Let's see:
Followers of Hectate - Welcome to the Jungle
A follower of Dionysus (bassarid) - Last Call
Ladies of the Dark River (The Stygian) - Backup - a story that suggests that there are many gods with minions working for them.

Notice that in all those cases the followers haven't quite been human, but you get the hint that they were human and transformed by their master (given Creature Features) or other rites.

And if Dagon is around...
(click to show/hide)
.  One of those beings, when asked if he's human, answered
(click to show/hide)
.

Richard
(who might have missed some)

Offline Obsid

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Re: True Believer in Evil
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2011, 12:26:10 PM »
I think for the most part Richard has this pinned.

A few things I might add though...

First, the concepts of Good and Evil are messy at best. A True Believer in Evil has the connotations of "A True Believer in Wrong." A True Believer in Wrong is a self contradiction if I've ever heard one. If you Truly Believe, then you don't think you're wrong. And if you don't think you're wrong, then would you call yourself evil?

Second, there is the possibility of a True Believer in "Evil". Please note the bold quotation marks. Harry Dresden might fall into this category. Magic is considered Evil by many people after all. If you define the word "evil" only by public opinion, then you can think something is right and even good, despite being evil.


Third, we reach again the problem with serving "Evil." I don't profess to really understand what the word means, but I think i get how people use it. If I'm wrong then this point means nothing. Evil is generally Destructive and Chaotic. If you truly believe that Evil is Right, then, in serving towards Destructive and Chaotic ends, you will find a tendency towards contradictions.

For example. A Village serving Evil partakes in one human sacrifice every day. On average, ten people are born a year. Eventually of course, there is no one left to worship Evil. The idea that this practice is Right contradicts itself, because the practice forces itself to be discontinued.

Now, I don't think worshipers of Evil will be quite that stupid, but I do think that they will notice smaller scale examples of such inherent contradictions. In order to continue worshiping Evil despite these contradictions they will go at least part way insane. Richard has already pointed out that Insanity is not Faith.


I personally think of Faith magic as a sort of sponsored magic. The Sponsor might be the White God as he's often called in the Dresdenverse, or maybe even the Holy Spirit (which I fancy to be akin to a Genius Loci or Intellectus construct). As long as you Serve His interests, He sponsors you. Doesn't much care if you Serve in His name.

Offline SunlessNick

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Re: True Believer in Evil
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2011, 11:47:35 PM »
Quote
As long as you Serve His interests, He sponsors you. Doesn't much care if you Serve in His name.  -  Obsid
That's why I brought up Ormazd/Ahura Mazda and Ahriman earlier.  Because the White God has been associated with the monotheistic religions and portrayed as somewhat above the gods associated with polytheistic ones, the bad god of a dualist religion could be seen as having the same kind of above-ness.  And might reward someone who a path based on believing evil nature to be truer nature (the type who thinks everyone wants to be just like them, but isn't honest and/or brave enough) - because it wants others to see those qualities result in power and reward, and so inclucate them.  You're right, though, the believer would probably call it "beyond good and evil" or something rather than evil.

Then again, we've seen no indication that anything like Ahriman exists in the Dresdenverse anyway.

Quote
If you define the word "evil" only by public opinion, then you can think something is right and even good, despite being evil.
The original post's example of the baals fits into this category too.  The term's been demonised in the popular consciousness, because it was used to refer to the gods of Canaan; but the baals weren't worshipped in Canaan because their worshippers thought they were demonically evil, it was the Israelites who (eventually) thought that.


Another angle, not necessarily based in evil, but probably more appropriate, is antinomianism.  That is the transgression of prohibitions as a deliberate spiritual practice (for example some of the dualist Gnostic sects who believed the god of the Old Testament was an evil being from whose prison the God of the New Testament was trying to free humanity would deliberate break the laws of Leviticus as part of their worship).  I don't see that kind of practice resulting in any kind of True Faith per se (it's more like a True Denial), but nor is it necessarily going to Sponsored by anything concrete, and there's some precedent for it in the Lawbreaking stunts, where breaking one of the Laws of Magic gets you some level of power towards doing it again (and gradually changes you spiritually).

So maybe the closest to a "true faith in evil" would be adapting the Lawbreaker Stunts so that you get something similar when you break certain implied laws (maybe the same as the Laws of Magic, maybe different, but based on the general theme of "don't screw with people just because you can") with deliberate metaphysical purpose - the intent to make the act change your spirit, the faith that your spirit should change in that way, because it's right and proper that a spirit should do so if it can.  And it does, you become spiritually more adept at that action (the bonus you get), but your nature changes and becomes tied to that action (the rewriting of Aspects and loss of Refresh).  Conversely, the people who do those things accidentally, or try to justify them and claim they don't matter, won't get the stunts because they lack the faith in the effect such an action should have.

Does this make any sense?  (I'm basically writing it down as I think of it).