Author Topic: True Believer in Evil  (Read 6527 times)

Offline ways and means

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True Believer in Evil
« on: May 17, 2011, 02:59:07 AM »
I was wondering could a true believer satanist work as a character concept? what about holy symobls which represent profanity for other faiths like baal who was holy for the Mesopatanians (I think) but a demon for christianity.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 03:02:14 AM by ways and means »
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Offline JayTee

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Re: True Believer in Evil
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2011, 03:11:56 AM »
I wouldn't think so, True Faith in canon is stressed many times as faith in a higher power, a greater good for whole of mankind. The opposite of that (profane) to me would be Outsider stuff.

You could do a Sponsored Magic-type deal with an Outsider with a sense of irony and have opposing "Powers" such as "Quash Thy Hand" "Wickedness" or "Profane Touch" which have similar effects, but debuff your enemies instead of buffing you, representing how Outsiders warp and break down reality around them.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: True Believer in Evil
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2011, 03:55:38 AM »
Dresden exerts the power of his Faith in Magic itself.
Baal would likely be one of the 'Old Gods' that, having lost much of their power, now lie in sleep or affect the world to a much smaller degree than they once did.

So, yeah, I don't think that a True Believer necessarily has to believe in the White God to gain power from their Faith.
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Offline JayTee

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Re: True Believer in Evil
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2011, 04:11:04 AM »
Oh dear, I seem to have misinterpreted the question. I was under the impression you were asking if Someone who worships an EVIL god could have GOOD powers.

Yes, that seems perfectly legit to me, Sanya after all is Agnostic, but still gets all the sweet perks. You might have to put a bit of a spin on it "Last True Believer of Baal" for example, given the demonizing of the name.

On the other hand, Belief is a powerful force in the Dresdenverse, its possible that since so many people BELIEVE that Baal is a demon, he might have actually BECOME a demon. Ultimately I think it can go either way, but its a grey area for sure in my books.

Offline SunlessNick

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Re: True Believer in Evil
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2011, 05:46:32 AM »
Well Baal isn't really a name, it just means lord, master or god (depending on the language).  Even Yahweh would almost certainly have been called Baal Hebru in some quarters.  On the other hand it's a very well known word, and one that's popularly imagined as a name, so I could see a demon adopting it as a means to get customers.  On the gripping hand, I can think of at least a dozen old gods - some good, some evil - that could legitmately claim it as a title, so it might be like the overpublished rituals that don't work any more.  Invoking "Baal" as too scattershot and won't reach anyone in particular.


'K I've drifted there.  Back on topic, you could take the debt/agenda advice of Sponsored Magic and apply it to other powers, including maybe faith, so the deity/demon is giving you strength and guidance in exchange for worship and following its agenda.  And depending on their being in question, there's no reason why it has to be a git about the deal.

Offline ways and means

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Re: True Believer in Evil
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2011, 10:05:39 AM »
I was under the interpretation that true faith powers didn't come from a respective diety but from strong belief so I thought faith might be enough to justify any type of true believer.
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Offline Taran

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Re: True Believer in Evil
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2011, 12:16:37 PM »
I was under the interpretation that true faith powers didn't come from a respective diety but from strong belief so I thought faith might be enough to justify any type of true believer.

I agree.  I can also see power through faith in ideals such as Love, Hate, Law, Chaos, as well as any of the gods.  This is why Holy Symbols work regardless of their religion and why Harry can use his pentacle against vampires.

As long as it fits the "theme" of beleif/faith, I'd allow any true beleiver powers and go so far as to let Players take Righteousness.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 12:19:56 PM by Taran »

Offline evileeyore

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Re: True Believer in Evil
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2011, 01:38:53 PM »
Oh dear, I seem to have misinterpreted the question. I was under the impression you were asking if Someone who worships an EVIL god could have GOOD powers.

I don't see True Faith as being either Good or Evil, it simply is.

Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: True Believer in Evil
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2011, 03:23:30 PM »
Here's my take on it - based on the novels, not any real life opinions I have.

In the DV, followers of evil get "power now" types of rewards.  Evil is the great shortcut when it comes the bad things helping you.  Want to death curse someone and you don't have time to learn magic? Then you do a rite that helps The Walker Behind and someone dies.  Want real power - including being able to live until something kills you? Then take up that coin and share your body with a Fallen Angel.  Tired of watching the bad guys skate on those charges just because they have good lawyers? Then become Hexenwolves with a demonic co-pilot and kill those bastards.

In short, it's "Go evil and get your reward now, not later" because the forces of evil are actively recruiting the morally weak.

On the other hand, the forces of good are all "do good now and when you die we'll reward you". You don't see angels going around "tempting" people to be good.  You don't get bribes for or make deals with the forces of good.  If you're not good for the sake of good then they hope you see the light - but they don't offer "coins of goodness" to the nickel heads and get into a bidding war with hell over someone's soul.

The swords? They aren't bribes.  You have to be the right person before you get offered one.  They are tools that a few people get offer, not rewards or bribes, and they come with a strong obligation - you commit to putting heaven's work ahead of your life and family.

We could get into a debate over whether part X of a religion is good or evil (as seen by outsiders) but the books make that irrelevant.  The existence of an agnostic knight shows that the forces of good are concerned with motives and actions - not dogma.

So when it comes to followers of evil, I'd give them other powers (including creature features and sponsored magic) and maybe minions rather than adopting the True Faith stuff.

Richard

Offline ways and means

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Re: True Believer in Evil
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2011, 04:09:32 PM »
When you talk about followers of evil you seem to be talking more about selfish nihilists than actual true believers people who only believe in themselves whereas I was talking about people who belived in powers such as chaos and destruction as the ultimate meaningand purpose of reality and that serving these powers is not self serving but serving the greatest good.
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Offline Taran

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Re: True Believer in Evil
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2011, 04:40:01 PM »
Here's my take on it - based on the novels, not any real life opinions I have.

In the DV, followers of evil get "power now" types of rewards.  Evil is the great shortcut when it comes the bad things helping you.  Want to death curse someone and you don't have time to learn magic? Then you do a rite that helps The Walker Behind and someone dies.  Want real power - including being able to live until something kills you? Then take up that coin and share your body with a Fallen Angel.  Tired of watching the bad guys skate on those charges just because they have good lawyers? Then become Hexenwolves with a demonic co-pilot and kill those bastards.

In short, it's "Go evil and get your reward now, not later" because the forces of evil are actively recruiting the morally weak.

On the other hand, the forces of good are all "do good now and when you die we'll reward you". You don't see angels going around "tempting" people to be good.  You don't get bribes for or make deals with the forces of good.  If you're not good for the sake of good then they hope you see the light - but they don't offer "coins of goodness" to the nickel heads and get into a bidding war with hell over someone's soul.

The swords? They aren't bribes.  You have to be the right person before you get offered one.  They are tools that a few people get offer, not rewards or bribes, and they come with a strong obligation - you commit to putting heaven's work ahead of your life and family.

We could get into a debate over whether part X of a religion is good or evil (as seen by outsiders) but the books make that irrelevant.  The existence of an agnostic knight shows that the forces of good are concerned with motives and actions - not dogma.

So when it comes to followers of evil, I'd give them other powers (including creature features and sponsored magic) and maybe minions rather than adopting the True Faith stuff.

Richard

I don't exactly see it that way.  I see it 2 ways:

1.)I see people worship or make deals with evil beings to gain power and Evil Beings use those people to further their Evil Goals. 

2) Good Beings don't tend to "use" people in the same way, so I see that good people are just good and then Good Beings are drawn to them and offer them rewards because their agendas happen to be the same.  Does that make sense?

So a truly faithful servant of the White God holds all the ideals of the White God, not because the White God promises a reward in the afterlife, but because they believe in those ideals despite the reward.  They might also happen to worship the White God because that God shares the same ideals.  But maybe that's a chicken or the egg argument.

So, if you happen to worship Tyranny, you might have True Faith Powers that are rooted in your beleifs.  You might also start attracting the attention of Beings with similar agendas who might offer you power.

Offline devonapple

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Re: True Believer in Evil
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2011, 05:06:18 PM »
This bears a remarkable similarity to the old "Anti-Paladin" debate in D&D (multiple versions).

Dragon Magazine (D&D 3.x) did a decent job of addressing this issue within their alignment system, creating a "holy" warrior for each alignment rating. What they did was to make sure that they operated in a balanced way, but with enough different powers and abilities that you weren't just playing a paladin with an evil god's name in the Deity box and a different alignment.

But it comes down to what you want at your table.

I was wondering could a true believer satanist work as a character concept? ...

...true faith powers didn't come from a respective diety but from strong belief so I thought faith might be enough to justify any type of true believer ...

I was talking about people who belived in powers such as chaos and destruction as the ultimate meaning and purpose of reality and that serving these powers is not self serving but serving the greatest good.

Well, that's the thing. The greatest good. There's a difference between "the greatest good" and "embracing the inevitable." Destruction and chaos may be the ultimate fate of reality, but it is not necessarily the meaning and purpose. One could make a case that the Fate of the universe is chaos and destruction, but that the Destiny available to its people is to live, love, and do good despite that inevitable destruction.

But this is a philosophical debate. And the players can have all the philosophical discussion they want - the objective is to have a cool character or NPC.

In this respect: do you want True Faith powers that repel or work against "good" things, or do you want the same thing that holy people get, but simply with a different power source and agenda?
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Offline Set Abominae

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Re: True Believer in Evil
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2011, 05:11:51 PM »
Here's my take on it - based on the novels, not any real life opinions I have.

In the DV, followers of evil get "power now" types of rewards.  Evil is the great shortcut when it comes the bad things helping you.  Want to death curse someone and you don't have time to learn magic? Then you do a rite that helps The Walker Behind and someone dies.  Want real power - including being able to live until something kills you? Then take up that coin and share your body with a Fallen Angel.  Tired of watching the bad guys skate on those charges just because they have good lawyers? Then become Hexenwolves with a demonic co-pilot and kill those bastards.

In short, it's "Go evil and get your reward now, not later" because the forces of evil are actively recruiting the morally weak.

On the other hand, the forces of good are all "do good now and when you die we'll reward you". You don't see angels going around "tempting" people to be good.  You don't get bribes for or make deals with the forces of good.  If you're not good for the sake of good then they hope you see the light - but they don't offer "coins of goodness" to the nickel heads and get into a bidding war with hell over someone's soul.

The swords? They aren't bribes.  You have to be the right person before you get offered one.  They are tools that a few people get offer, not rewards or bribes, and they come with a strong obligation - you commit to putting heaven's work ahead of your life and family.

We could get into a debate over whether part X of a religion is good or evil (as seen by outsiders) but the books make that irrelevant.  The existence of an agnostic knight shows that the forces of good are concerned with motives and actions - not dogma.

So when it comes to followers of evil, I'd give them other powers (including creature features and sponsored magic) and maybe minions rather than adopting the True Faith stuff.

Richard

To some degree I agree with your line of thinking. It reminds me of Yoda telling Luke that the dark side was quicker, easier, more seductive, but not more powerful.

It's always harder and longer to follow the path of light than the short jog into darkness. We see this demonstrated in human nature over and over again. Good can lead to slow gradual payoffs with a lot of sacrifice along the way, where evil tends to pay off right now, but often ultimately leads to terrible sacrifice later.

That being said, Jim seems to take an approach similar to many settings I've seen (such as the World of Darkness), where the power of belief is far more a factor than the nature and contributions of what is being believed in. For instance in Mage, strong belief could manifest changes in reality, and the stronger the belief, the greater the changes, hence magic and the power of faith. A mage might believe in his own power to create change where the faithful believes in a higher power to create change, but ultimately the strength of the belief was where the real mojo came from. One could see it as an act of faith as opposed to an act of will, but both needing sufficient conviction to effect any change.

In my own spin on it for purposes of this fiction, it could be said that belief is the conduit by which greater powers invest themselves, a kind of symbiosis where the supernatural needs belief to have power, and rewards that belief with power towards ends that are consistent with its goals and nature. But for wizards, that power comes from their lineage and the ability to channel power through their own convictions to effect change (much like the Mage mythos).

Point being, yes, believe in a power enough (either good or evil) and they will respond. Believe in your own power enough and you can do it yourself, for good or for ill, hence the distinction between white and black magic.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 05:13:44 PM by Set Abominae »
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Offline Silverblaze

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Re: True Believer in Evil
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2011, 05:37:53 PM »
Eternal Debate this is.

Sorry for the yoda speak, but this is a big question for most gamers.  
Should Paladins have a direct foil? Like Angels vs devils - Jedi vs Sith - Milk vs orange juice 8)

I don't think good or evil needs a direct corresponding foe in terms of powers or behavior, but there needs to be a balance.

I don't particularly find a problem with any being capable of free will having True Faith in something, as long as we don't get rediculous.  (go go gadget True Faith in plaster!)

I can even see them having similar powers.  They don't however need to be so simple as opposites of each other.  Often times...as Richard points out: true Faith isn't the best fit for the powers of the character, which doesn't mean "NO!"...it just means think about what fits best.

I'd hazard one thought before allowing this in a game as a GM.  Is this going to be fun for both the player and me; or is this just a way to get True Faith powers without the traditional responsibilities?
Many evil organizations/ religions in games have just as strict rules as the good guys.  Players need to realize this.

I also feel a game full of people with True Faith (not just PC's; but NPC's); a world where 1 out of 15 people have true Fiath...would make it less rare and less special.  Though it could be the theme of a game I suppose.

Bottom Line: do as you will in your game.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 05:39:55 PM by Silverblaze »

Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: True Believer in Evil
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2011, 06:14:13 PM »
Just a bit of a follow up:

Most cultures throughout history have had similar definitions of good.  Most anthropologists and socialists all agreed all functional societies more or less have to include the same basic points.  Without "Don't murder, steal, commit adultery, or bear false witness" we can't gather together in groups.  The specifics change but the broad points don't.

Jim appears to have taken that concept and applied it to the forces of good in his books.  Those forces look at the big picture and leave the details to others.  The Knights of the Swords don't get call upon to enforce the fine points of dogma - and my take is that the Big Guy in the DV is nondenominational.

To say "But Joe thinks that he's doing good by sowing death and chaos" another way of saying "Joe is insane and delusional".  Most people with delusions don't just believe them to be true - they know them to be true.  Should everyone who is off his meds get "Faith" powers because he knows that "Blah" talks to him and tells him to slaughter? My view is no, that you need a grounding in reality to have what is known as faith.

If Joe is a warlock who honestly believes that he'll make the world a better place by killing cheerleaders then I can't see him holding of a black court vampire with the power of his Holy Machete of Death the way that Dresden uses his pentacle.  Joe doesn't have faith - he has madness (and several lawbreaker stunts, and maybe a negative refresh) but not faith in a power that exists outside of himself.

And as we discuss this point, we should be focusing on the books as opposed to the real world.  Seriously, can anyone point to a single line in any book where the bad guys had faith as opposed to powers given by their "Dark Master"?

For that matter, my take on the books is that not every wizard can do that pentacle thing that Harry does.  They don't all think of it like Harry does - for some of them it would be like trying to hold off a vampire with a screwdriver or other tool.  It doesn't define their lives like it does for Harry.

Gamewise:
If Faith is tapping into the well of belief, then being the sole person with a faith in <evil cause> won't do it - you need a bigger well to get the water.
If Faith is being rewarded by a higher power, then evil beings don't tend to give the same rewards as good ones - there's a different mindset at work there.
If Faith is "personal magic molded into 'Faith' powers", then you still need to believe that your cause is more than just personal ambition and self enrichment.  You need something to have Faith in before you can shape into power.

On the other hand, the DFRPG police aren't going to kick down your door if Billy the Satanist uses his Dark Faith powers to enslave the Cute Girl Who Never Noticed Him.  From a canon point of view I'll continue to point to the books and say "evil doesn't reward like that" but if you want it in your game then go for it.

Richard